Assume we don’t trade Manny and he walks

[wildcard]

I can't say that I blame Peter Angelos for holding the O's back over the past 6 years.    He has increased payroll from 84m to 170m over that time.  Yes, the O's started 2017 at 164m but by the end of the year they had spent 170m.

That is a pretty heavy commitment for a team that is 23rd in attendances.   Peter wants to win and he is proving it every year in the last six.   Probably the biggest reason he has done that is the great move he made to get control of MASN and the legal work he has done to protect it.  The MLB forced him to give up the Washington market and in the bargain he negotiated the best deal he could for the Orioles. 

Peter is not a saint.  He is not easy to work for as a GM or Manager.   The O's are always going to be the underdogs to NewYork and Boston and sometimes to Toronto who draws from a whole country.  Maybe if expansion and re-alignment happens things change.  Maybe even for the better but that is no sure thing either.

Peter, Buck and Dan put together a nice 5 year run.   Against the odds.   Its just uncertain where it goes from here given the unbalanced monetary nature of the AL East.    I am not going to blame any of them for that.  I will just watch and root for them to overcome the obstacles. 

[foxfield]

27 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I can't say that I blame Peter Angelos for holding the O's back over the past 6 years.    He has increased payroll from 84m to 170m over that time.  Yes, the O's started 2017 at 164m but by the end of the year they had spent 170m.

That is a pretty heavy commitment for a team that is 23rd in attendances.   Peter wants to win and he is proving it every year in the last six.   Probably the biggest reason he has done that is the great move he made to get control of MASN and the legal work he has done to protect it.  The MLB forced him to give up the Washington market and in the bargain he negotiated the best deal he could for the Orioles. 

Peter is not a saint.  He is not easy to work for as a GM or Manager.   The O's are always going to be the underdogs to NewYork and Boston and sometimes to Toronto who draws from a whole country.  Maybe if expansion and re-alignment happens things change.  Maybe even for the better but that is no sure thing either.

Peter, Buck and Dan put together a nice 5 year run.   Against the odds.   Its just uncertain where it goes from here given the unbalanced monetary nature of the AL East.    I am not going to blame any of them for that.  I will just watch and root for them to overcome the obstacles. 

Well said.

[El Gordo]

47 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I can't say that I blame Peter Angelos for holding the O's back over the past 6 years.    He has increased payroll from 84m to 170m over that time.  Yes, the O's started 2017 at 164m but by the end of the year they had spent 170m.

That is a pretty heavy commitment for a team that is 23rd in attendances.   Peter wants to win and he is proving it every year in the last six.   Probably the biggest reason he has done that is the great move he made to get control of MASN and the legal work he has done to protect it.  The MLB forced him to give up the Washington market and in the bargain he negotiated the best deal he could for the Orioles. 

Peter is not a saint.  He is not easy to work for as a GM or Manager.   The O's are always going to be the underdogs to NewYork and Boston and sometimes to Toronto who draws from a whole country.  Maybe if expansion and re-alignment happens things change.  Maybe even for the better but that is no sure thing either.

Peter, Buck and Dan put together a nice 5 year run.   Against the odds.   Its just uncertain where it goes from here given the unbalanced monetary nature of the AL East.    I am not going to blame any of them for that.  I will just watch and root for them to overcome the obstacles. 

PA has continued to place many constraints on the FO that have kept the team from being even better. Rigid physicals, no International signings, no posting offers, limited FA SP contracts, late extension offers, continued interference and micro managing on trades, the Davis contract, etc.

[Aristotelian]

"Never about one player" is a cliche. There is some truth to it - of course it is possible to build a good team without Manny - but it's irrelevant. The question is whether we would be better getting something back for him. Getting back some MLB ready prospects gives us a better chance at rebuilding quickly than nothing. 

[Frobby]

14 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Manny is on the path to be a HOF player.   Its much better to have those kind of players then to not have them.  How the O's can find position players.   Its the pitching that matters the most when playing in a hitters park.   If the O's can keep Bundy and Gausman plus add Harvey and Akin who turn out to be good major league starters the O's will be in pretty good shape to contend.   But as we have seen for the last 20 years.  Pitching prospects come to the majors and fail way too often in Camden Yards.   It a tough place to pitch.

I think the “Camden Yards is a tough place to pitch” narrative is a bit overblown.    The O’s had a 4.60 ERA at home this year, 5.38 on the road.   Last year it was 3.81 at home, 4.64 on the road.   In any event, a good pitcher is going to outpitch his opponent most of the time regardless of what the home stadium is like; it’s the same for both teams.

[esmd]

They can withstand the loss of Manny if they replace his production, and that can be done in a number of ways.

My issue is one of value.  If they let him leave as a FA rather than trading him, they're getting significantly less value back in return most likely.  I suppose the 2nd or 3rd round comp pick they get could turn into another HOFer, but odds are they'd do much better with getting 3-4 or more partially developed or even MLB-ready prospects back in a trade.

[El Gordo]

32 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think the “Camden Yards is a tough place to pitch” narrative is a bit overblown.    The O’s had a 4.60 ERA at home this year, 5.38 on the road.   Last year it was 3.81 at home, 4.64 on the road.   In any event, a good pitcher is going to outpitch his opponent most of the time regardless of what the home stadium is like; it’s the same for both teams.

I agree. If there is a negative to a SP signing with the O's it has more to do with the physical.

[El Gordo]

23 minutes ago, esmd said:

They can withstand the loss of Manny if they replace his production, and that can be done in a number of ways.

My issue is one of value.  If they let him leave as a FA rather than trading him, they're getting significantly less value back in return most likely.  I suppose the 2nd or 3rd round comp pick they get could turn into another HOFer, but odds are they'd do much better with getting 3-4 or more partially developed or even MLB-ready prospects back in a trade.

A one year trade for Manny isn't bringing back 3 or 4 players. 

[tntoriole]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think we're doomed to be bad with him or without him.  Frobby's caveat, that they need to make smart moves is a given.  But this team has hardly ever made smart moves and, until recently, has had a hard time developing young talent.  They have shown that they can develop position players (Schoop, Manny) but being able to develop pitching still remains a question mark.  Bundy is a nice sign but there needs to be a lot more.  They have shown that their FA starting pitching acquisitions are mostly terrible.

Having him would make the bad seasons more tolerable.  Slick plays at 3rd, big homers.  HOF career.  Much in the mold that Ripken was one of a few reasons to tune in for a large part of his career.

Well, this would make me want to sign for the rest of my career with the Orioles if I was Manny....lol.   Losing for the rest of my career...yippee!   Not that I think he is going to sign with us under any scenario, including the idea that he probably wants a ring and the Orioles have not had one of those in 34 years.  

[tntoriole]

I switched to the "might as well keep Manny now" group after the deadline passed this season.   It, for me, was the absolute latest you could still get a good return.  My strongest recommendation was to deal him last winter when he would have brought an entire farm system of prospects for two years worth of Manny.

But now we "might as well keep him".   We are getting virtually nothing now back for him now or at the deadline.    This failure will hamper the team for the next five years at least.  Because those prospects that we could have had last winter will become stars during that time frame, so we will get to watch Manny continue his HOF career and watch the prospects we didn't get also perform at a top level.    The handling of Manny has really been the major GM/ownership have-to ever since he came to the majors and they have completely bungled it.  Completely.   

[TouchemAll]

Another FO great paying Davis and letting Manny go... Enough said...

[sevastras]

We are going to go the Mike Mussina route instead of the Erik Bedard route(time has passed for that to be done)

[esmd]

3 hours ago, El Gordo said:

A one year trade for Manny isn't bringing back 3 or 4 players. 

Depends on quality, but you're right, I'd prefer quality.

But, IF they'd have traded him last year....

[El Gordo]

4 minutes ago, esmd said:

Depends on quality, but you're right, I'd prefer quality.

But, IF they'd have traded him last year....

Last year would have been better but who thought the team couldn't contend? I didn't expect Davis , Manny, Trumbo, Tillman Gausman, and Miley to be as bad as they were, did you? If they had all had career average years we would have made the play offs.

[wildcard]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think the “Camden Yards is a tough place to pitch” narrative is a bit overblown.    

Tell that to all the FA starters that will not come Baltimore  this offseason.  And to any of the FA starters the O's have to overpay to get to come to pitch in Camden Yards.   I guess we will just wait and see.