Orioles Fall on Opening Day

[Ohfan67]

57 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Judging from what we have seen from him I wouldn't expect next season's opening day roster to include to high or middle ranked prospects.  I wouldn't be shocked to see Diaz being the only highly though of guy (only including two pitchers) brought up at all.

Hopefully we won't see a work stoppage in 2022.

I agree. I hope next years roster has significantly more talent, but it’s likely to be another melting pot of poor players. The 2000s Orioles “strategy” of sprinkling overpaid, mid-level free agents onto an otherwise AAAA roster was financially and draft-strategy dumb, but I have to admit that it produced rosters with more talent than what we are seeing now. This is the better long-term strategy, but the contrast In talent between the Orioles and even an average major league roster is shocking and very hard to watch. I am praying to the baseball gods that someone like Hays gives us two months of at least a little sunlight. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I agree. I hope next years roster has significantly more talent, but it’s likely to be another melting pot of poor players. The 2000s Orioles “strategy” of sprinkling overpaid, mid-level free agents onto an otherwise AAAA roster was financially and draft-strategy dumb, but I have to admit that it produced rosters with more talent than what we are seeing now. This is the better long-term strategy, but the contrast In talent between the Orioles and even an average major league roster is shocking and very hard to watch. I am praying to the baseball gods that someone like Hays gives us two months of at least a little sunlight. 

I'm fine with not paying for mid-tier free agents I don't agree with the miserly advancement of prospects.  I think guys can develop just fine in the majors and that the service time issues are overblown in almost all cases.

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm fine with not paying for mid-tier free agents I don't agree with the miserly advancement of prospects.  I think guys can develop just fine in the majors and that the service time issues are overblown in almost all cases.

I admit, holding Mountcastle off this particular roster so that he can... practice I guess (?) at Bowie with no minor league season seems pretty ridiculous.

[scOtt]

4 hours ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

Why is it that we can't develop good starting pitching?

It's in the Constitution. 28th Amendment. look it up.

[Enjoy Terror]

26 minutes ago, Philip said:

Isn’t that backwards? A good arm is more rare and expensive than a good bat. It might be more difficult for a good arm to Develop into a great arm, so the attrition rate During development might be greater, but a glance at the bats we’ve drafted Recently Doesn’t reveal any treasures. The best one was a flyer we took with the 249th pick.

 

That was sarcasm.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Enjoy Terror said:

That was sarcasm.

I could see why he wouldn't know.

Some folks have been advocating that approach since that is, in a very simple sense, what the Astros did.

[Philip]

4 minutes ago, Enjoy Terror said:

That was sarcasm.

OK, well it worked.

[SteveA]

3 hours ago, section18 said:

Our manager has a bad habit simiiar to what Buck had of saving pitchers for the next two games. I believe we have sixteen pitchers all rested and he lets Carroll and Lakins get raked and then brings in kerosene Hess and we have an embarassing loss. This happened at OP last year for the paying fans as well. He seems to think he is in Spring Training and when they get down by three or four runs its a route so games over. Some may disagree but I would rather lose 8-3 than 13-2. Its demoralizing to the rest of the team. I remember LaRussa changing pitchers multiple times in the same inning during games if a guy walked a player and coming back to win. The offense without Mancini and Villar  and not being replaced will probably guarantee another number 1 pick in the draft. The sooner we can add Mountcastle the better. Did Herrera clear waivers? Some punch ! Valdez cleared and should have made it over Hess. He should have stayed on the roster. I would have kept Holoday as a backup catcher and let him work with Cobb some more. They clicked in D.C. Its obviously only one game but our manager needs to work the pen and if they are going to walk guys or give up hits get them out of there. When asked about Carroll after the game saying he was too over amped and nerves got to him was strange. There was nobody there to watch and no crowd intimidation.

Ah yes, the season is underway when the complaints about leaving pitchers in too long start echoing through OH.

Milone hadn't allowed a hit for the first two innings.  You aren't going to get a guy up to start the 3rd in that situation, you just aren't.  Once Milone started getting shelled, he got Carroll up.  Milone got out of the inning before he brought him in.  Yeah he maybe could have brought him in before the end of the 3rd, but now with hindsight we know that wouldnt have made much difference as Carroll sucked.  Milone retired 2 of the last 3 batters he faced.  So I say the notion that he left Milone in too long is wrong.

Then you seem to also say he left Carroll in too long.  Well, he faced 4 batters.  The rules require he face three.  So I guess you are upset about one walk there.

Then you seem to imply he left Lakins in too long, which is absurd. All the damage he gave up was in the first 5 batters.  He retired 5 of the last 6 guys he faced.

The problem last night wasn't Hyde leaving guys in too long.  It was BAD pitching.  Period.

[CanadianOsFan]

We waited 4 months for that?!?!?

Ugh. expecting more games like that but very disappointing for opening day. 

No visions of this team capturing hardware but some of the roster decisions which appeared to be based on status of their position on the 40 man became questionable in 1 game which is unacceptable.

I have no problems with seeing Carroll so that we can figure out what he is after the injury but Hess is a dumpster fire. He shouldn't be on the 40 man. I wonder if he shouldn't be on the 60 man. I have to believe the front office still feels bad for pulling him from the no-hitter last year.

I think we are all only watching for the Hays, Santanders, etc on the roster and last night didn't exactly make me excited for any future.

[Bahama O's Fan]

You can build for the future but at some point you have to put a competitive team out there or risk losing the mlb fanbase

[Philip]

28 minutes ago, SteveA said:

 

The problem last night wasn't Hyde leaving guys in too long.  It was BAD pitching

I certainly agree with the bad pitching part, but the fact is the manager knows the limitations of his pitchers. If he wasn’t surprised at two clean innings he should have been.

He knows the signs that a pitcher is starting to falter, And he must’ve seen them last night and he didn’t react to them in time.
Buck had the same problem, but at least Buck never had 15 fresh guys from which to choose. Hyde did.

Also, I wonder about the pitch selection, because one of the announcers mentioned that all four doubles were to the same spot in left field. I don’t remember if they said they were all on the same pitch, but I’d like to know whether Milone altered his pitch choice or kept throwing the same thing.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

You can build for the future but at some point you have to put a competitive team out there or risk losing the mlb fanbase

If you don't eventually put out a competitive team all you have been doing is building for someone else's future.

[SteveA]

4 minutes ago, Philip said:

I certainly agree with the bad pitching part, but the fact is the manager knows the limitations of his pitchers. If he wasn’t surprised at two clean innings he should have been.

He knows the signs that a pitcher is starting to falter, And he must’ve seen them last night and he didn’t react to them in time.
Buck had the same problem, but at least Buck never had 15 fresh guys from which to choose. Hyde did.

Also, I wonder about the pitch selection, because one of the announcers mentioned that all four doubles were to the same spot in left field. I don’t remember if they said they were all on the same pitch, but I’d like to know whether Milone altered his pitch choice or kept throwing the same thing.

I still say no manager in baseball gets someone up to start the 3rd when their starter hasn't allowed a hit and has 3 strikeouts through winnings, even if he "knows the limitations of his pitchers".   Does Milone have a history of being awful in the 3rd inning?

Let's look at how that inning unfolded.   

Double -- I still say you don't get someone up just because your guy gives up his first hit, based on how he had looked in the first two innings.   You can hindsight it to death and say somehow Hyde should have known that there would be 3 more doubles or something, but I say that is ridiculous.

Strikeout

Double -- OK, maybe you get someone up in the pen here.   Now lets say it takes at least 2 batters for the guy to get ready.

Walk

Strikeout.   Your reliever is ready.   But you aren't going to run out an take Milone out after he got his second strikeout of the inning and is one batter away from getting out of the inning with 2 outs.   You can argue otherwise, but I say you aren't.

2-run double makes it 4-0.   OK, you could relieve Hess here.   Your reliever is ready, he's given up 3 doubles in the inning and 4 runs.   But Hyde left him in.

Fly out to end the inning.

I just can't look at that sequence of events and gripe about sticking with him too long.   To do so you would have had to get a guy up to start the inning or after he gave up ONE hit.   It's utter hindsight to say Hyde should have done that.   NO manager does that.

And if we are going to use hindsight of course we now know that Carroll was terrible so an earlier hook with Milone wouldn't have done a damn thing.

The bottom line is you put guys in roles and you give them a chance to do that job.   For a starter that means getting out of his first bad inning after two good innings.   For Carroll that means getting outs.  Same for Lakins.    It's so easy after a guy gives up a bunch of stuff to say "he should have gotten him out of there sooner", but I believe it's simply not the case.   I believe Hyde got his reliever up after the 2nd hit of the inning, which is very reasonable.   And I believe he was ready to come in after a couple batters but by that point Milone had just struck out Bogaerts for the 2nd out and it was very reasonable to leave him in to face Pillar.

So I don't think Hyde did anything incorrect that inning, other than perhaps the move that DID work out:  leaving him in after Pillar's double, and Milone got Vazquez to fly out.   I think kneejerk reactions about how a guy should have been removed earlier are almost always based on hindsight (and they always carry the implicit assumption that the reliever would have done better, which can't be disproven but is often wrong).

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I still say no manager in baseball gets someone up to start the 3rd when their starter hasn't allowed a hit and has 3 strikeouts through winnings, even if he "knows the limitations of his pitchers".   Does Milone have a history of being awful in the 3rd inning?

 

Any manager that uses an opener or is having a "bullpen game" would.  Which is how some of us think Hyde should have been handling things given the size of his bullpen.

The results were fine in the first two innings but did anyone think Milone looked dominant?

[Ohfan67]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm fine with not paying for mid-tier free agents I don't agree with the miserly advancement of prospects.  I think guys can develop just fine in the majors and that the service time issues are overblown in almost all cases.

I agree. The Orioles and fans will be incredibly lucky if Mountcastle or similar players earn significant free agent contracts in the future.