Hyde can’t manage this team

[Moose Milligan]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

I pity guys who are brought in to manage teams that are in the early stages of a rebuild.   It’s just inevitable that a lot of fans will blame them when the turnaround doesn’t happen as quickly as fans would hope.   

I’m not saying Hyde is the right guy or the wrong guy, in the long run.   But I don’t think the team’s record has much to do with him.   I also don’t think this team is particularly lacking in fundamentals or discipline.   They just aren’t that good, and during a long losing streak every flaw is magnified.   The pitching has been atrocious over the last month, that’s the main problem and not the manager’s fault.   And now the offense is pressing.

I’ll be happy when this losing streak ends, not just because I want to see the team win, but because I get tired of reading all the redundantly negative posts here.   Of course it is completely justified to be negative under the circumstances, but there’s only so much of it I can wallow in.   
 

Agreed, word for word.  

At the end of the day, people just want a scapegoat.  And since you don't see Elias on TV each night and since people can sometimes comprehend that Elias is the one stocking the system, he gets a bit of a pass.

Hyde is unfairly getting the brunt of the criticism, IMO.  But considering the source of some of the posters here who are doing the lambasting, IMO it's not really worthy criticism.  It's people who are frustrated and lashing out because they don't know what else to do and they need a fall guy. 

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Agreed, word for word.  

At the end of the day, people just want a scapegoat.  And since you don't see Elias on TV each night and since people can sometimes comprehend that Elias is the one stocking the system, he gets a bit of a pass.

Hyde is unfairly getting the brunt of the criticism, IMO.  But considering the source of some of the posters here who are doing the lambasting, IMO it's not really worthy criticism.  It's people who are frustrated and lashing out because they don't know what else to do and they need a fall guy. 

What I always find funny about these conversations is how much they like to lambast the manager but then they say the team sucks, we have no talent, etc....

Its like when you blast the GM for not spending money but the owner won’t let them.  Your hands are tied.

[Explosivo]

20 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What I always find funny about these conversations is how much they like to lambast the manager but then they say the team sucks, we have no talent, etc....

Its like when you blast the GM for not spending money but the owner won’t let them.  Your hands are tied.

But that’s not what has been said. We do have talent. There are pieces on this team that are good and will be around when the rest of the talent gets here. Along the way though, progression is key. We are seeing a team that is regressing. Players are left frustrated by being misused and that’s directly a result of managing. It’s all good. I feel like we are reversing where we stood but a few pages ago. Hyde is clearly not the guy we want to see continue on. He is just fine being the manager of a last place team. It’s a bummer of a deal and maybe deep down he’s a great manager but just hasn’t shown it. Perhaps he’ll get another opportunity but don’t start back up again with the “it’s not Hyde’s fault as well” comments. There are multiple instances of Hyde showing you what he is. Last year’s debacle of sticking with Sulser as the closer was rough for one. I’m not keeping a running list of on the field reasons as to why I think Hyde isn’t a quality manager. We hired him because of his close proximity to Joe Madden and his years of mlb experience both on and off the field. I haven’t seen that contribute to wins. That’s my opinion. On the flip side, can you name a series where Hyde’s decision making pulled victory from the jaws of defeat? I can’t. With Buck, you could. Those 2012 and 2014 seasons were masterful. We also had talent, but we certainly weren’t the most talented teams in baseball. He squeezed every drop of talent off that roster. Perhaps the juxtaposition is why it is so glaring to me that Hyde is no Buck.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Explosivo

[accinfo]

1 hour ago, Explosivo said:

 He squeezed every drop of talent off that roster. Perhaps the juxtaposition is why it is so glaring to me that Hyde is no Buck.

There isn't a ton of talent to squeeze anything from.  The 2012 and 2014 Orioles were much more talented than this team.   It didn't take a great manager to squeeze anything from Manny Machado.  How much did Buck squeeze out of that 2018 roster that lost 115 games?  Saying that I was a fan of Buck but you can't get chicken salad from chicken feathers.

[Explosivo]

3 minutes ago, accinfo said:

There isn't a talent to squeeze anything from.  The 2012 and 2014 Orioles were much more talented than this team.   It didn't take a great manager to squeeze anything from Manny Machado.  How much did Buck squeeze out of that 2018 roster that lost 115 games?  Saying that I was a fan of Buck but you can't get chicken salad from chicken feathers.

I think his best moments were getting the most out of his pitchers and putting them in the best possible positions to pull rabbits out of hats. Setting up double plays with ground ball pitchers, balancing relief pitching so they didn’t get burnt out, using guys like Matusz against specific batters, that kinda thing. But you’re right, we had much more talent on those teams. This team has pieces, but we don’t have a complete team. Those pieces are coming and soon we will have better starters than we possibly ever have. At least not since the late 60s.

[accinfo]

1 minute ago, Explosivo said:

Those pieces are coming and soon we will have better starters than we possibly ever have. At least not since the late 60s.

The 70's and early 80's starters weren't bad.  I will take that. 

[Frobby]

34 minutes ago, accinfo said:

There isn't a ton of talent to squeeze anything from.  The 2012 and 2014 Orioles were much more talented than this team.   It didn't take a great manager to squeeze anything from Manny Machado.  How much did Buck squeeze out of that 2018 roster that lost 115 games?  Saying that I was a fan of Buck but you can't get chicken salad from chicken feathers.

I won’t say a good manager doesn’t matter.   I will never, ever forget how the O’s flipped the switch in 2010 after Buck arrived: 32-73 before, 34-23 after.  

That said, I don’t think this team will flip any switches this year.   But they are not as bad as they’ve been during the 0-14 stretch and I expect them to play better no matter who the manager is.
 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I won’t say a good manager doesn’t matter.   I will never, ever forget how the O’s flipped the switch in 2010 after Buck arrived: 32-73 before, 34-23 after.  

That said, I don’t think this team will flip any switches this year.   But they are not as bad as they’ve been during the 0-14 stretch and I expect them to play better no matter who the manager is.
 

The 2011 team, under Buck, went 69-93.

[Philip]

Here is an interesting quote from Ken Rosenthal about New York manager:

”The more damning reflection of Boone’s leadership is the sloppy way in which his players are performing. Even if you grant that Boone is handicapped by a dysfunctional roster, there is no excuse for the Yankees’ poor baserunning (they lead the majors in outs on the bases) and inattentive defense (they rank 18th in Statcast’s outs above average).”

I have often said that one of Hyde’s problems Is that he neither inspires his players to give their best, nor frightens them into giving their best, with the result being frequently sloppy play.

The idea that the Yankees have a “dysfunctional roster” is pretty laughable, but the point that Rosenthal makes is a valid one.

[foxfield]

39 minutes ago, Philip said:

Here is an interesting quote from Ken Rosenthal about New York manager:

”The more damning reflection of Boone’s leadership is the sloppy way in which his players are performing. Even if you grant that Boone is handicapped by a dysfunctional roster, there is no excuse for the Yankees’ poor baserunning (they lead the majors in outs on the bases) and inattentive defense (they rank 18th in Statcast’s outs above average).”

I have often said that one of Hyde’s problems Is that he neither inspires his players to give their best, nor frightens them into giving their best, with the result being frequently sloppy play.

The idea that the Yankees have a “dysfunctional roster” is pretty laughable, but the point that Rosenthal makes is a valid one.

1.  The article in the Athletic (paywall) by Ken, is a piece on the massive failure by Ownership, GM, Manager and players for the Yankees.  The snippet above is almost a throwaway line in the piece.

2.  To take the criticism of Boone, who is 6 1/2 games out with a team carrying a payroll of 207 Million give or take, and think that is somehow justification/explanation for Hyde as a poor motivator is literally just making up bs.

3.  This isn't an algebra problem.  You are entitled to your opinion that Hyde sucks without showing your work.

4.  The issue people routinely take with you on this, is your defense of your position.  Like resting a player on game 4 of a 162 game season because....the best players should play. Or the snippet above are just plain wrong or just nonsensical reaches.

5.  At the end of the day, I am not convinced Hyde will be the manager next year or whenever the Orioles are competitive again.  But I am completely willing to give him an actual competitive team before I cast him aside as incompetent.  Remember, Earl Weaver, the best manager the Orioles ever had, looked pretty bad when he was given crap to work with.  I am not saying Hyde is or can be Weaver.  Just reminding you that Hyde doesn't have Cuellar, McNally, or Palmer.  He doesn't have Bobby Grich at 2B or Brooks Robinson at 3B.

6.  It is possible, that Hyde IS getting the absolute best from these guys but we cant tell because they are just that bad. 

7.  Lastly it is possible that you turn out to be completely right and if that happens, I will congratulate you for your wisdom.  But it still will have nothing at all to do with things like resting major league players or whether he sufficiently scares em.  If it helps at all, I don't want Boone.  

[wildcard]

I think Hyde does motivate his players.  He is not a pitching coach.  So when Holt have to leave for a while the team didn't win.  Holt comes back and the team starts winning again.   What that saying to me is that Darren Holmes is not a good replacement for Holt.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I think Hyde does motivate his players.  He is not a pitching coach.  So when Holt have to leave for a while the team didn't win.  Holt comes back and the team starts winning again.   What that saying to me is that Darren Holmes is not a good replacement for Holt.

What it says to me is that judging anything  like this on a few games is pretty foolish.

What motivational speech did Holt give to Mullins and Mountcastle?  What did he do to cause them to score 17 runs?

Not to mention, in a 14 game losing game streak, a lot of bad stuff happens and a lot of it is bad luck.  Things tend to even out over a full season.

[Frobby]

That article on Boone seems laughable to me.   The Yankees are 14th out of 15 in runs scored (after leading the league last year) and Rosenthal is worried about outs on the bases and bring very slightly below average in OAA?    Talk about ignoring the real problem!   It’s also a case of piling on during a bad stretch.   

[wildcard]

39 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What it says to me is that judging anything  like this on a few games is pretty foolish.

What motivational speech did Holt give to Mullins and Mountcastle?  What did he do to cause them to score 17 runs?

Not to mention, in a 14 game losing game streak, a lot of bad stuff happens and a lot of it is bad luck.  Things tend to even out over a full season.

You didn't think Mullins was more than a 4th OFer when I said he was a starting CF.  Now he don't believe Holt is anything special as a pitching coach.   I'll just wait you out.   

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

You didn't think Mullins was more than a 4th OFer when I said he was a starting CF.  Now he don't believe Holt is anything special as a pitching coach.   I'll just wait you out.   

Lol

Your basis for Mullins wasn’t anything set in reality. You were throwing sh** against the wall and seeing if it would stick.  If you do that with enough things, something will. 
 

And I never said Holt wasn’t anything special.  I said we don’t have any evidence that he is as good as you think he is or that he is some wizard who magically makes players better.

But beyond that, you talked about how we are winning with him here.  Well, we lost a boatload of games and then did well vs Cle and Minnesota, winning 4 of 6.  In those 6 games, the pitching staff gave up 26 runs.  That’s not bad (not exactly world beating either)but they won because they scored 38 runs.  There was one really well pitched game, where they won 3-1.
 

Now, as I asked in the last post, what did Holt say to the offensive players to get them to hit better?