Should we have kept Brocail?

[O-The-Memories]

I don't think our group of pitchers as it stands right now is much better than the 2003 Tigers, but I'll have to check the stats. Means has got to be the best guy on either one of those staffs. but we have to be historically bad overall, right? 

When a staff is this bad I don't think any one factor is the primary reason for failure. I think coaching, a lack of talent, and even a lack of a high level sports psychologist could be in play. 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

It’s unknowable how the team would have done with Brocail, but it’s pretty clear that Holt isn’t some magical wizard as some had built him up to be.   

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While there hasn't been a lot of talent to work from this year, when every one of your minor league prospects pitchers come up and fail, you have to start wondering what's going on. 

Meanwhile in the minors, besides Rodriguez who has a much talent as anyone in the minors, what pitchers have taken a big step forward? 

How good is he at identifying talent? Afterall, one of the few pitchers he helped jettison  this spring was Zach Muckenhirm, a lefty with a mid-90s fastball that's pitching to a 1.45 ERA this year in AA for the White Sox.

I see lefties like Wells, Lowther and Rom all with below average changeups even though they are the exact kind of pitchers that need a good changeup to have success at the major league level.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure i see what Holt has done for this organization so far that makes me thinks he's some difference maker.

[eddie83]

Maybe Spider Tack was the secret to the 2019 MiL improvement...

 

We all talked about how the MiL staff in 19 produced much better results. Last year obviously no data. 
 

 

[interloper]

Holt is not a wizard, but certainly don't see Brocail having more success with this group. 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, interloper said:

Holt is not a wizard, but certainly don't see Brocail having more success with this group. 

Except he did..but again, in a smaller sample size.

[Moose Milligan]

17 minutes ago, interloper said:

Holt is not a wizard, but certainly don't see Brocail having more success with this group. 

I feel like @wildcardis taking unnecessary flak in this thread.  Dude tends to get carried away and fall in love with players/coaches at the drop of the hat, it's part of who he is.  

[wildcard]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While there hasn't been a lot of talent to work from this year, when every one of your minor league prospects pitchers come up and fail, you have to start wondering what's going on. 

Meanwhile in the minors, besides Rodriguez who has a much talent as anyone in the minors, what pitchers have taken a big step forward? 

How good is he at identifying talent? Afterall, one of the few pitchers he helped jettison  this spring was Zach Muckenhirm, a lefty with a mid-90s fastball that's pitching to a 1.45 ERA this year in AA for the White Sox.

I see lefties like Wells, Lowther and Rom all with below average changeups even though they are the exact kind of pitchers that need a good changeup to have success at the major league level.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure i see what Holt has done for this organization so far that makes me thinks he's some difference maker.

Tony, Tony, Tony

Pitching changed mid season when MLB told pitchers that could no longer use anything to grip a slick baseball.  Now they have to learn to pitch differently.

Means -  was one of the best pitcher in baseball before he was hurt

Tyler Wells have looked good

Grayson continues to look great

DL Hall was pitching well before he hurt his arm

Baumann has recovered from a elbow injury and is pitching well at AAA

Bradish has move up two levels this season and has looks good in this last 4 starts

Cameron Bishop was O's minor league pitcher of the month in June at Bowie with a 3-0, 2.76 ERA.

Rom  moved up 2 levels from 2019.  He is 10-0 with a 3.05 ERA at A+ and AA.

Brnovich went from pitching at Elon in 2019 to A+ ball this year and earned a  promote to AA.  He has struck out 91 in 70.1 IP, a 3.33 ERA and a o.967 WHIP in 15 starts

Bautista has moved up 3 levels is throw in 100mph and making the O's decide if he should be a the 40 man roster the off season.

There is more in the low minors but I will stop for now.

 

 

 

[Aristotelian]

46 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While there hasn't been a lot of talent to work from this year, when every one of your minor league prospects pitchers come up and fail, you have to start wondering what's going on. 

Meanwhile in the minors, besides Rodriguez who has a much talent as anyone in the minors, what pitchers have taken a big step forward? 

How good is he at identifying talent? Afterall, one of the few pitchers he helped jettison  this spring was Zach Muckenhirm, a lefty with a mid-90s fastball that's pitching to a 1.45 ERA this year in AA for the White Sox.

I see lefties like Wells, Lowther and Rom all with below average changeups even though they are the exact kind of pitchers that need a good changeup to have success at the major league level.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure i see what Holt has done for this organization so far that makes me thinks he's some difference maker.

What does Holt (the MLB pitching coach) have to do with Wells, Lowther and Rom developing changeups? Isn't that the job of people further down the chain? We've always had problems developing pitchers since before Holt and before Brocail even. 

Until this year, Wells, Lowther, and Kremer were all progressing well in the minors. Baumann and Rom are doing well. It's really hard to attribute fault since there are so many people involved, not least the players themselves. 

Personally, I don't believe much in pitching or hitting coaches making much of a difference. Their main purpose as far as I can tell is to have a fall guy around for when the team isn't doing well. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

What does Holt (the MLB pitching coach) have to do with Wells, Lowther and Rom developing changeups? Isn't that the job of people further down the chain? We've always had problems developing pitchers since before Holt and before Brocail even. 

Until this year, Wells, Lowther, and Kremer were all progressing well in the minors. Baumann and Rom are doing well. It's really hard to attribute fault since there are so many people involved, not least the players themselves. 

Personally, I don't believe much in pitching or hitting coaches making much of a difference. Their main purpose as far as I can tell is to have a fall guy around for when the team isn't doing well. 

Holt is basically the head of pitching for the entire organization.  So yes, he has direct influence on the minors and what players are doing.

[Orioles0615]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

It’s unknowable how the team would have done with Brocail, but it’s pretty clear that Holt isn’t some magical wizard as some had built him up to be.   

I was thinking this the other day, every pitching coach we have had since Adair has been touted as some sort of wizard saving grace. From Wallace and Chiti, to Mark Connor, to McDowell, to even Rick Peterson (although not officially a coach). Now it's Holt. Everyone of those guys seemed to be touted as the savior. 

[Tony-OH]

45 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Tony, Tony, Tony

Pitching changed mid season when MLB told pitchers that could no longer use anything to grip a slick baseball.  Now they have to learn to pitch differently.

Means -  was one of the best pitcher in baseball before he was hurt

Tyler Wells have looked good

Grayson continues to look great

DL Hall was pitching well before he hurt his arm

Baumann has recovered from a elbow injury and is pitching well at AAA

Bradish has move up two levels this season and has looks good in this last 4 starts

Cameron Bishop was O's minor league pitcher of the month in June at Bowie with a 3-0, 2.76 ERA.

Rom  moved up 2 levels from 2019.  He is 10-0 with a 3.05 ERA at A+ and AA.

Brnovich went from pitching at Elon in 2019 to A+ ball this year and earned a  promote to AA.  He has struck out 91 in 70.1 IP, a 3.33 ERA and a o.967 WHIP in 15 starts

Bautista has moved up 3 levels is throw in 100mph and making the O's decide if he should be a the 40 man roster the off season.

There is more in the low minors but I will stop for now.

 

 

 

Hey, you want to look at things through orange colored glasses that's up to you. So tell me, what has he done to help any of those pitchers and how many of them do you think will be impact guys in the major leagues?

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

Hey, you want to look at things through orange colored glasses that's up to you. So tell me, what has he done to help any of those pitchers and how many of them do you think will be impact guys in the major leagues?

None of them, knowing our luck.  

But some guys in the minors have had good seasons, that can't be denied.  How much of that is attributed to Holt?

[Tony-OH]

32 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

What does Holt (the MLB pitching coach) have to do with Wells, Lowther and Rom developing changeups? Isn't that the job of people further down the chain? We've always had problems developing pitchers since before Holt and before Brocail even. 

Until this year, Wells, Lowther, and Kremer were all progressing well in the minors. Baumann and Rom are doing well. It's really hard to attribute fault since there are so many people involved, not least the players themselves. 

Personally, I don't believe much in pitching or hitting coaches making much of a difference. Their main purpose as far as I can tell is to have a fall guy around for when the team isn't doing well. 

No, Holt is the pitching coordinator for the entire organization. From what I hear, managers and coaches are told what to teach and pitches to use or work on.

As for your last comment, for longtime major leaguers or veterans I agree, for developing pitchers I do not agree at all. 

Again, I'm not saying Holt is terrible, I'm saying that I haven't seen any marked improvements from someone. You know, someone suddenly using a Means career defining/changing changeup or a pitcher that says I'm completely different because of what I've learned with the Orioles.

I'm also not happy that every single rookie pitching prospect failed this year at the major league level. Why did all of their command fall off? Why did none of them improve? Why did Scott, Fry and Tate all go backwards this year? 

Besides Sulser, who has improved? 

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

None of them, knowing our luck.  

But some guys in the minors have had good seasons, that can't be denied.  How much of that is attributed to Holt?

Sure, there are some pitchers having nice season and wildcard pointed most of them out, but my question goes back to him, what did Holt do that made them successful? Who has improved because of Holt?

Sulser is the only answer at the major league level.

In the minors, Grayson Rodriguez has crazy talent. Did Bautista just grow into his body and finally harness his stuff or did Holt and or his pitching coaches do something? 

Rom, his command has always been really good and he can throw four pitches well, but with a 88-90 MPH fastball, he needs a changeup that moves right to left for right-handers at the major league level. When i watch him pitch he barely uses the changeup. WHY? I don't care if he gets hammered a bit for awhile, he needs to develop that changeup more because that's going to be a key to him having success in the big league long term. 

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Sure, there are some pitchers having nice season and wildcard pointed most of them out, but my question goes back to him, what did Holt do that made them successful? Who has improved because of Holt?

Sulser is the only answer at the major league level.

In the minors, Grayson Rodriguez has crazy talent. Did Bautista just grow into his body and finally harness his stuff or did Holt and or his pitching coaches do something? 

Rom, his command has always been really good and he can throw four pitches well, but with a 88-90 MPH fastball, he needs a changeup that moves right to left for right-handers at the major league level. When i watch him pitch he barely uses the changeup. WHY? I don't care if he gets hammered a bit for awhile, he needs to develop that changeup more because that's going to be a key to him having success in the big league long term. 

No one knows for sure what Holt did to make them successful.  And no one can say any improvement anywhere belongs to Holt.  No one can also say any improvement DOESN'T belong to Holt, either.  

I'm not defending him, I'm also not laying blame at his feet 100% either as I don't think there's a lot of great talent to work with outside of G-Rod, Hall, etc.  Can't make chicken salad with chicken ****.