Orioles looking to trade Means?

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I didn't read that Elias thinks winning is not a priority.  Just that he expects the improvement to come internally.   I am sure he will add a few low cost players like a back up catcher, 3B, lefthanded reliever and probably a starter.

So you mean, the same strategy as was used in 2021.  How did that work out?

[Frobby]

I don’t necessarily interpret Elias’ remarks as saying he will sit on his hands all winter.   Signing Matt Harvey or signing Marcus Stroman are not the only options on the spectrum.   I am not expecting any big splashy moves but I do think that we may look for pitching and infield help a bit further up the food chain from where we’ve been dining the last three seasons.   We’ll see.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I’m glad to hear they are testing the market for Means.   They should be.   I won’t be happy if they trade him without getting a very significant return back.   

This is how I look at it. I have no issues trading Means (I have more issues trading a young controllable Mullins) if they can get a nice return of young players that are ready or nearly ready. They have to get a nice young good looking starting pitching prospect in AA or AAA back in return along with at least one other piece (maybe a power bullpen arm in AA/AAA). 

I'd avoid getting anyone too far away and it can't be a Bundy like return.

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

But Mullins is way more replaceable with what we have in our system and on the ML team.  Means isn’t.  So, if you are going to trade Means, you might as well trade Mullins because you are saying we aren’t winning anytime soon.

And btw, back this up with the Q&A I just posted and they are saying that.

They could deal Means and still win in 2022.  But they won’t because they don’t want to win.  Because they don’t care.  

By who? Cowser is probably the closest outfielder who is an everyday player prospect who can play center field, but you are going to see a drop off from Mullins who is one of the best. Cowser probably belong in LF or RF really, but I'd play him in CF if I had no better alternatives.

Means will be 29 years old and can't stay healthy over an entire year and has struggled in the second half when competitive teams need guys to step up. If we can turn him into a young starting pitching prospect that's ready or nearly ready, then maybe a power bullpen arm that's nearly ready, I'd do that. Maybe have them throw in a Pinto like lottery ticket.

I just don't see why we would trade Mullins unless we got an absolute haul of pitching prospects to include nearly ready ones. Mullins will be just entering prime next year and is coming off a 30-30 year with all of statcast metrics trending in the right direction. 

Everything shows Mullins to be legit and we don't have a young pure center fielder in the system that is a an everyday player at the big league level. 

[Tony-OH]

34 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Elias is telling you now that winning in 2022 still isn’t a priority.  They aren’t going to make moves.  Any improvement of the team Comes from within and that’s it.

So, you are now looking at 2024 as the first realistic season this team is a true contender.  Are you keeping Means (and Mullins for that matter) are for 2 more seasons just for that final one?  

I think that's been the case ever since COVID stole a year of development. 2022 is able trying to win with young players. 2023 is about trying to compete with their core young players. 2024 should be the year where we are competing for the playoffs. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

By who? Cowser is probably the closest outfielder who is an everyday player prospects who can play center field, but you are going to see a drop off from Mullins who is one of the best. Cowser probably belong in LF or RF really, but I'd play him in CF if I had no better alternatives.

Means will be 29 years old and can't stay healthy over an entire year and has struggled in the second half when competitive teams need guys to step up. If we can turn him into a young starting pitching prospect that ready or nearly ready, then maybe a power bullpen arm that nearly ready, I'd do that. Maybe have them throw in a Pinto like lottery ticket.

I just don't see why we would trade Mullins unless we got an absolute haul of pitching prospects to include nearly ready ones. Mullins will be just entering prime next year and is coming off a 30-30 year with all of statcast metrics trending in the right direction. 

Everything shows Mullins to be legit and we don't have a young pure center fielder in the system that is a an everyday player at the bog league level. 

Hays to CF.  You have COers.

The Os aren’t contenders until 2024 at the earliest.  Mullins will be pushing 30 and expensive.  If someone is paying up for him, there is no reason to keep him now.

Elias is telling you that they don’t care about winning right now.  If it happens because of young guys developing at the Ml level, great.  Otherwise, they aren’t going to spend and try.  They are going to have a payroll of 40 million or so in 2022.  That’s stupid and can’t be justified on any level.

 

[Yardball85]

27 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I didn't read that Elias thinks winning is not a priority.  Just that he expects the improvement to come internally.   I am sure he will add a few low cost players like a back up catcher, 3B, lefthanded reliever and probably a starter.

So Maikel Franco, Brian Holiday, Matt Harvey, and Fernando Abad.  Would be pathetic if this offseason is a carbon copy, or close to, the 2020-21 offseason.  

I don't understand why rebuilding and developing talent from within PRECLUDES the team from adding actual good players.  I really don't get that strategy at all. 

[HowAboutThat]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os aren’t tanking in 2022 and then winning in 2023.  It doesn’t work that way.

And tanking in 2022 shouldn’t even be discussed.

Like I have said many times, what Mike does with his assets will be 100% determined by whether he flips the switch now. The act of trading them means little by itself, but the return means everything. If he expects to improve the on field product this season( and one comment indicates that possibility) then any trade of Means or Mullins will bring back MLB-ready pieces. If he makes a trade and gets some 18-year old kids with Arrival dates two years out, then we’ll know.

You seem to miss that I agree with you about 2022 should be a year of on-field progress, and trying to win real games. 
Mullins and Means should only be traded for MLB-ready pieces who can go to work right now.

If Mike feels he can accomplish that, then sure, why not.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

I think that's been the case ever since COVID stole a year of development. 2022 is able trying to win with young players. 2023 is about trying to compete with their core young players. 2024 should be the year where we are competing for the playoffs. 

And that’s bs Tony.  The players and money are there to push for 500 this year and contend in 2023.  You have Adley and GRod ready to come up now.  Stowers can potentially be right behind them.  You have some other pitchers that could help on the staff.  Add a few good offensive players and 1-2 starters and this team can be good and that is without having a payroll of even 80 million.  
 

Covid is a cop out.  It was great for the Angelos family because they can put things off another year in “hopes” that dear old dad passes away and they can sell and not get crushed in inheritance taxes.

[HowAboutThat]

3 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

We’re going to fill this team out through waiver wire claims like Fox. I don’t even see us signing an innings eater like Matt Harvey. 

I hope to god we don’t sign another guy like Matt Harvey. Or King Felix or Maikel Franco or Nate Karnes or so on.

If we sign a FA, sign a good one, otherwise why bother? We have enough possibilities here to fill out the season, even if those innings won’t be very good. Why pay a million bucks or more to bring in someone who isn’t better than what we have?

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

By who? Cowser is probably the closest outfielder who is an everyday player prospects who can play center field, but you are going to see a drop off from Mullins who is one of the best. Cowser probably belong in LF or RF really, but I'd play him in CF if I had no better alternatives.

Means will be 29 years old and can't stay healthy over an entire year and has struggled in the second half when competitive teams need guys to step up. If we can turn him into a young starting pitching prospect that ready or nearly ready, then maybe a power bullpen arm that nearly ready, I'd do that. Maybe have them throw in a Pinto like lottery ticket.

I just don't see why we would trade Mullins unless we got an absolute haul of pitching prospects to include nearly ready ones. Mullins will be just entering prime next year and is coming off a 30-30 year with all of statcast metrics trending in the right direction. 

Everything shows Mullins to be legit and we don't have a young pure center fielder in the system that is a an everyday player at the bog league level. 

Mullins will be just entering prime next year?   I’d say there’s a very good chance he will never approach 5.7 rWAR again.   I like him and generally agree with what you’re saying but I personally don’t believe he’s going to equal or improve upon his 2021 season anytime soon.  I’d be happy to be proven wrong about that.   

[wildcard]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

By who? Cowser is probably the closest outfielder who is an everyday player prospects who can play center field, but you are going to see a drop off from Mullins who is one of the best. Cowser probably belong in LF or RF really, but I'd play him in CF if I had no better alternatives.

Means will be 29 years old and can't stay healthy over an entire year and has struggled in the second half when competitive teams need guys to step up. If we can turn him into a young starting pitching prospect that ready or nearly ready, then maybe a power bullpen arm that nearly ready, I'd do that. Maybe have them throw in a Pinto like lottery ticket.

I just don't see why we would trade Mullins unless we got an absolute haul of pitching prospects to include nearly ready ones. Mullins will be just entering prime next year and is coming off a 30-30 year with all of statcast metrics trending in the right direction. 

Everything shows Mullins to be legit and we don't have a young pure center fielder in the system that is a an everyday player at the bog league level. 

I don't like the starting staff led by a rookie in Grayson.    

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I don't like the starting staff led by a rookie in Grayson.    

Grayson won’t be on the staff to start the year in any event.   

[Tony-OH]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Hays to CF.  You have COers.

The Os aren’t contenders until 2024 at the earliest.  Mullins will be pushing 30 and expensive.  If someone is paying up for him, there is no reason to keep him now.

Elias is telling you that they don’t care about winning right now.  If it happens because of young guys developing at the Ml level, great.  Otherwise, they aren’t going to spend and try.  They are going to have a payroll of 40 million or so in 2022.  That’s stupid and can’t be justified on any level.

 

Mullins will be 29 in 2024 and he doesn't have a skill set that generally erodes in the early 30s. I think he will be fine. 

Hays is not a center fielder really either, though he can play there like Cowser. Hays' sprint speed has fallen from 91.7 percentile to 58.4 in the last four years and his reaction and burst speeds have fallen off to below average as well. Mullins overs 34.6 ft/per second while Hays covers 31.7 ft/per second. Mullins had a 10 Outs above average rating in center field while Hays ha a -1 in LF. So if you want a well below average center fielder, then you play Hays there.

I don't have the statcast info on Cowser so I'm going by what I saw which admittedly is on video where it's tough to see jumps, but he just doesn't show me that top sprint speed you'd really want out there. His routes need some work as well but he's still new to pro ball so I can't ding him too much on that.

I think you underestimate what Mullins brings as I don't think you are a true believer of his breakout season.

 

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Not for their best starter.

Currently, their only starter. But that shouldn’t interfere with a good trade.