Orioles looking to trade Means?

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, you add in those guys, make a few trades and spend some money you can have a 70-80 win team in 2022.  Notice, I’m not saying a contender.  I’m talking about a serviceable/respectable on field product and then you take the leap in 2023.

Im not talking about running the payroll to 120+M for 2022.  
 

I’m saying have a payroll similar to what the team had in the 2009-2011 area.  
 

None of this asking too much From them.

I think this could be a really exciting team in 2022, even if they only win 45% of their games.  But the Angelos family won’t let that happen.

I agree with this 100%. I do not know why you are so contentious with me when we apparently agree completely on with the team should be doing this off-season

[Frobby]

OK, time to go sign Rutschman.  

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Frobby said:

OK, time to go sign Rutschman.  

I would consider it…8 years max though.  Would prefer 7 with a team option.

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Yep..and FG doesn’t like his defense.  BBR pegged his dWAR at .4, which means he was worth 4 runs above the average CFer, which isn’t some great number.  So, it’s a mixed bag in terms of how the advanced defensive stats view him (I still think most defensive stats are bs personally)

I think he’s a good defensive OFer and I don’t agree with FG saying he is below average.(but it’s still something to use)  But I also don’t think j he’s a great defender and I don’t think he’s some savior with the glove for the pitching staff.  He isn’t close to the level of a guy like Keirmeier (or at least what he was a few years ago, not sure how he stacks up now tbh)

His weak arm doesn’t help.

 

Well, when you have conflicting analysis, and each analysis is based on significant information, you have to look at the algorithms and decide which set you like the best.

To me it’s very clear that when it comes time to running and catching the ball Mullins is among the best. I used to love Kevin Pillar And Lorenzo Cain, they got to everything. I’m not sure Cedric is quite at that level, but I would never feel unprepared with him and center, and he sure can hit.

[Pickles]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I would consider it…8 years max though.  Would prefer 7 with a team option.

And this is exactly why you don't sign him.

Getting a single FA year isn't worth the risk.

[forphase1]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

There is a lot here:

1). Yes, I think making the on field product better is absolutely important.  You still do have a fan base you need to build and keep.

2) I don’t think they go from a 50 win team to a contender in a year.  These things take time to build.  Players have to learn to win.  How long are we supposed to wait for that?  Are we waiting until 2025?  You think this needs to take 6-7 years?
 

3) I’m advocating making moves for players that help now and later and the payroll flexibility still stays.  I have mentioned this before but the Orioles are in the Lamar Jackson phase for quite some time..in other words, they are going to have a ton of cheap contracts on the team for years to come.   They can afford to spend now and later.  And again, I generally hate free agency and big contracts.  I don’t want to pay any of the SS for this reason.  But I also do feel, especially when you have been as pathetic as the Os have been, that you do need to show the fans and the sport that you will spend and that you will bring in real talent to help you win.  We saw the Nats do this with Werth.  The contract may have sucked (and there were a lot of reasons to feel that way at the time) but it did potentially help them attract other guys down the road.  I think there is value to that.

1) Sure, but I think you are fooling yourself if you think going from winning 52 games to winning 67-70 games is going to really do anything to build or keep the fan base.  Both are losing teams, one just wins 32% of their games while the other 42%, more or less.  I'm not sure that does anything to bring folks back or to keep them interested.  Winning will bring fans back, not just slightly sucking less.

2) It takes as long as it takes, there isn't a perfect timeline.  We all, I think, expected us to be farther down this path, but between Covid and some of the 'cavalry' not panning out, we simply aren't as close as we were hoping at this point.  The nucleus to build around simply isn't at the MLB level yet.

3) As to the big moves, they just aren't realistic here at this stage of our rebuild.  I don't see many top players, who will still be worth their contracts a couple years down the road when we are in the middle of our 'window', as being willing to sign here until we have a better core to put around them.  The guys that will sign here are exactly the kind that won't help us much, middling average guys who are stop gap measures at the best.  And I'm not sure signing Werth really did anything to attract other guys down the road.  In the end of the day, free agents will come here once we have the talent and are willing to slap them with the checkbook.  But most of the top guys want to win AND get paid, not just get paid.  I feel we'd have to WAY overpay to entice a top player to sign with this current team, and that just doesn't make sense.  In the end money will talk, and free agents will sign here when we are ready, whether or not we sign any big names in this particular offseason.  

[LookinUp]

8 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

3) As to the big moves, they just aren't realistic here at this stage of our rebuild.  

Money always let's a team be competitive. Just look at the Mets or Angels.

[Orioles0615]

I am all for listening, but trading Means is the perfect Orioles M.O. of being 2 years away from being 2 years away. 

[HowAboutThat]

48 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Those mediocre teams sacrificed future opportunities to be mediocre and not garbage; it's one of the reasons they were mediocre for so long.

You understood that 15 years ago.

Sports guy and I butt heads quite a bit, and I’m always right and he’s always wrong, and this time we are both right. What he is saying that nobody seems to get, is that we can be a better team this year while also continuing to lay the groundwork for future continued success.
He is saying there is no need to field a 55-win team when we can accomplish the same Long-term goals and field a 75 win team. Signing Bryant is stupid, and I’m doubtful we can sign any meaningful pitching. And I don’t want to trade Mullins, but we can find a GM who is desperate and also doesn’t want to sign a $300 million pitcher, and we can take advantage of that GM’s weakness. Preller sure seems a fool, the Rockies and Mets are a mess, Seattle has the trade king, and so on.

I’m not suggesting that any of those guys would be ideal trade partners for us, but it is possible to trade means for two or three players who can have an impact on the field this season.

And yes sports guy is right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with striving to get into the 70s, and everything right with it.

Its time for Mike to show what kind of horse trader he is.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Philip

[Sports Guy]

15 minutes ago, Pickles said:

And this is exactly why you don't sign him.

Getting a single FA year isn't worth the risk.

I disagree.  First of all, if it was 8, you get 2 years.

Secondly, we don’t know how the new CBa will impact this.  This could be 2-4 FA years.

Lastly, I only want him to be here for a guaranteed 7 or 8 years and since the organization is flushing at least one of his years down the toilet, I hope to make up for it.

At his age and his position, I wouldn’t want to be locked into him any longer than that.

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

1) Sure, but I think you are fooling yourself if you think going from winning 52 games to winning 67-70 games is going to really do anything to build or keep the fan base.  Both are losing teams, one just wins 32% of their games while the other 42%, more or less.  I'm not sure that does anything to bring folks back or to keep them interested.  Winning will bring fans back, not just slightly sucking less.

2) It takes as long as it takes, there isn't a perfect timeline.  We all, I think, expected us to be farther down this path, but between Covid and some of the 'cavalry' not panning out, we simply aren't as close as we were hoping at this point.  The nucleus to build around simply isn't at the MLB level yet.

3) As to the big moves, they just aren't realistic here at this stage of our rebuild.  I don't see many top players, who will still be worth their contracts a couple years down the road when we are in the middle of our 'window', as being willing to sign here until we have a better core to put around them.  The guys that will sign here are exactly the kind that won't help us much, middling average guys who are stop gap measures at the best.  And I'm not sure signing Werth really did anything to attract other guys down the road.  In the end of the day, free agents will come here once we have the talent and are willing to slap them with the checkbook.  But most of the top guys want to win AND get paid, not just get paid.  I feel we'd have to WAY overpay to entice a top player to sign with this current team, and that just doesn't make sense.  In the end money will talk, and free agents will sign here when we are ready, whether or not we sign any big names in this particular offseason.  

1). I never mentioned 60 wins.  I agree 60 wont help.  But a 70-80 win team that is far more competitive night in and night out is absolutely important.

 

I disagree with most of the rest of this but it’s not worth re-hashing..just agree to disagree.

[Aristotelian]

3 minutes ago, Philip said:

And yes sports guy is right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with striving to get into the 70s, and everything right with it

I think pretty much everyone on the board is on board with this. 

[Pickles]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I disagree.  First of all, if it was 8, you get 2 years.

Secondly, we don’t know how the new CBa will impact this.  This could be 2-4 FA years.

Lastly, I only want him to be here for a guaranteed 7 or 8 years and since the organization is flushing at least one of his years down the toilet, I hope to make up for it.

At his age and his position, I wouldn’t want to be locked into him any longer than that.

We already have him for 7- or 6.8.

We don't know how the new CBA will impact that so it seems silly to speculate.

But as the rules are now, we have him for seven basically.  And I repeat, to get one FA year doesn't make sense to guarantee the 100s of millions it would take.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Pickles said:

We already have him for 7- or 6.8.

We don't know how the new CBA will impact that so it seems silly to speculate.

But as the rules are now, we have him for seven basically.  And I repeat, to get one FA year doesn't make sense to guarantee the 100s of millions it would take.

It won’t take 100s of millions unless he demands that, which tells you he has no desire to be here long term.  He can’t and won’t approach the Franco deal.  Maybe he gets the Acuna deal and even that is a stretch Imo.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

1) Saving money?  Why do they need to keep saving it.  If you say they wre “keeping it for a rainy day”, they have had several years of building that up..plus Covid allowed them to not spend on salaries.  The revenue streams for these teams is tremendous and they get tons of cash from revenue sharing alone. 
 

2) Yes, a higher pick is the one advantage you have in losing.

To be clear, again, I’m ok with them tanking early on.  I was sort of ok with it for 2021, moreso because of covid. 

Not caring about winning in 2022 is a joke and the idea that anyone would be ok with it is even worse.  You can’t justify it.  Again, im Not calling for them to be contending for the division in 2022.  I’m asking them to field a team that, on paper, should win 43-50% of their games…not 30-40%.  

I understand what you are saying here and honestly, I would not be ok with another 2021 season where the team was bringing up players that had no business in the major leagues.

While I'm not against adding players who will be here for 4 years or so, I just don't see the difference maker free agents for this team. Now, if Kris Bryant was willing to sig a one year contract and hope a year of hitting in Camden Yards could make him more valuable, then yes, I'd give him a one year $20 million contract and hope he doesn't kill the team defensively. Am I going to sign him for 4-5 years? No, because Henderson and Mayo could be long term solutions at 3B and could be ready by 2023.

I'm not convinced Stroman or Gausman is the answer this year for the rotation though they could help. I also don't see them wanting to pitch here if they have other options.

Would you be upset with an opening Day rotation of:

1. Means
2. T. Wells
3. Lowther
4. Bradish
5. Zimmermann

By May bring up Rodriguez is he's pitching well

Bullpen:

CL: Lopez - RHP
RP: Scott - LHP
RP: Bautista - RHP
RP:  Sulser - RHP
RP: Baumann - RHP
RP -Tate - RHP
RP: Akin - LHP
RP: Kremer - RHP

If they move Means, you have to hope they have a nearly ready SP in return.