Grayson Rodriguez 2022

[ChosenOne21]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But I think it's ridiculous when a 6'5" 220 pound 22 year old and he's on a more restrictive pitch limit than when he was pitching in High School.

I agree as long as he wasn't being abused in high school. Problem is, most of these guys were

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, ChosenOne21 said:

I agree as long as he wasn't being abused in high school. Problem is, most of these guys were

Most?

Really?

What's abused?

I think you might just be making a blanket statement based off of a few data points. 

[ChosenOne21]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Most?

Really?

What's abused?

I think you might just be making a blanket statement based off of a few data points. 

I don't have the time to research this right now, but for every top HS pitcher who "refuses to be abused" I hear about ten who threw 130 pitches and came in to close the next day, or something like that

I'll define abuse as pitching on less than three days rest or throwing more than 100 pitches in a start if that helps

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, ChosenOne21 said:

I don't have the time to research this right now, but for every top HS pitcher who "refuses to be abused" I hear about ten who threw 130 pitches and came in to close the next day, or something like that

Yea, I don't think that is near as common in this day and age.

Is stuff like what Dylan Bundy did in HS a thing?  Sure, but I put some of the blame on him and his father. 

Honestly I think the year round pitching is more of a problem.

I've never seen any proof that not letting 22 year old hit 80 pitches or pulling 23 year old at 71 pitches accomplishes anything.

 

[ChosenOne21]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yea, I don't think that is near as common in this day and age.

Is stuff like what Dylan Bundy did in HS a thing?  Sure, but I put some of the blame on him and his father. 

Honestly I think the year round pitching is more of a problem.

I've never seen any proof that not letting 22 year old hit 80 pitches or pulling 23 year old at 71 pitches accomplishes anything.

 

It could be the year-round pitching, sure. Arms need time to recover. Completely agree with you about the pitch counts. My guess is the teams are trying to take it easy with arms they feel have been subject to too much stress in the past, but who knows

It could be that teams think third time through the lineup is going to be a thing of the past soon and so they aren't building up their pitchers to do that

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, ChosenOne21 said:

It could be the year-round pitching, sure. Arms need time to recover. Completely agree with you about the pitch counts. My guess is the teams are trying to take it easy with arms they feel have been subject to too much stress in the past, but who knows

It could be that teams thing third time through the lineup is going to be a thing of the past soon and so they aren't building up their pitchers to do that

Which I would be fine with.

But don't go and use a guy not going deep into games as an excuse to not call them up.

Also, if that is the plan you should also be more creative in how you use your bullpens in the minors to try and improve that part of the equation.

[btdart20]

2 hours ago, Just Regular said:

Passan feature on the demise of the SP, with Alek Manoah (promoted to MLB after 35 minors innings, btw) saying the things I imagine Grayson would also say, unless Elias-Sig-Blood culture efforts are radically great.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/34196864/dying-breed-sucks-decline-starting-pitcher-means-baseball-future

Some snippets that jumped out at me on first read:

"Everyone's here guessing," one National League farm director says. "Even the doctors don't know. Pitching is just a hard thing to do."

"It's math. It's real," says Theo Epstein, the World Series-winning executive who now works as a consultant for MLB. "If you're looking to just optimize for one game, of course you'd rather have a fresh reliever than a starter third time through. But when every team takes that approach there's a real cost to the industry. We lose the identity of the starting pitcher as a prominent character in the drama day in and day out."

One team, the Los Angeles Dodgers' Single-A affiliate Rancho Cucamonga, leaves its starters in for an average of 2.9 innings

There's an elegant solution to fix it, one that Epstein espouses to anyone in the commissioner's office, ownership circles and front offices who will listen: limit pitchers on the active roster to 11

When a majority of relievers are paid less than $1 million a year and effective, proven starters command 20 times that, there's a cost-saving element plenty of owners won't ignore.

 

 

I'd be down for limiting the # of pitchers.  And completely agree that known SPs are better for the game than unknown RPs.  It would be interesting to see what type of stance the MLBPA takes on this (the few big names vs. more no-names).  The trend is definitely toward limiting the number of times through the line-up (openers/middlers, piggybacks, etc.).  Though I wonder if it would decrease the violence associated with maximizing velocity and spin.  I suspect that's as much to blame for the injury risks as the workload.  

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure.

I've never suggested that you abuse guys.

But I think it's ridiculous when a 6'5" 220 pound 22 year old and he's on a more restrictive pitch limit than when he was pitching in High School.

Arguably, the bigger and stronger you are, the more stress you are putting on your tendons etc. when you throw a baseball.  And, pro pitchers are probably going max effort more often than some dominant HS pitcher.   So, I actually can see reasons why pro pitch limits might be stricter.   I don’t know if they actually are; undoubtedly there’s a very wide variance in how protective HS coaches are of their pitchers.  
 

Edit: here’s some actual data on HS pitch limits.   https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/high-school-pitch-count-rules-by-state/?amphtml

 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Arguably, the bigger and stronger you are, the more stress you are putting on your tendons etc. when you throw a baseball.  And, pro pitchers are probably going max effort more often than some dominant HS pitcher.   So, I actually can see reasons why pro pitch limits might be stricter.   I don’t know if they actually are; undoubtedly there’s a very wide variance in how protective HS coaches are of their pitchers.  

My counter argument would be if the smaller and weaker pitchers had less injury issues we'd see evidence of that.

I do no see any reason while a fully grown and developed adult would be under more restrictions than a developing child.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

My counter argument would be if the smaller and weaker pitchers had less injury issues we'd see evidence of that.

I do no see any reason while a fully grown and developed adult would be under more restrictions than a developing child.

By the way, I edited my post to add a link showing HS pitch limits by state.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you on this, just positing some counter arguments.  I’m not a physiologist so I don’t really know.    
 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

By the way, I edited my post to add a link showing HS pitch limits by state.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you on this, just positing some counter arguments.  I’m not a physiologist so I don’t really know.    
 

Nice data.

Looks like the bottom limit is 95 pitches and that's for underclassman.

[Tony-OH]

On 6/6/2022 at 3:38 PM, ChuckS said:

If Grayson is going to come back to the minors this year just to build up innings (when the season is practically over) or just to get more experience (when he’s already proven everything he needs to in Triple A) then what is the point?

I’m either bringing him up to Baltimore as soon as he’s healthy to get valuable big league experience or shutting him down for the year. You could even have him come out of the bullpen.  I don’t see the value of having him come back just to throw 20 innings in the minor leagues in September. Better to just keep resting the lat if that’s the only other option. 

I seriously doubt we see Rodriguez this year for anything other than maybe a few appearances in September at best,

[Tony-OH]

4 hours ago, ChosenOne21 said:

I don't have the time to research this right now, but for every top HS pitcher who "refuses to be abused" I hear about ten who threw 130 pitches and came in to close the next day, or something like that

I'll define abuse as pitching on less than three days rest or throwing more than 100 pitches in a start if that helps

I'm not sure that happens any more. There are rules in High School in MD for the number of pitches they can throw in a week, so I imagine that's the same around the country.

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm not sure that happens any more. There are rules in High School in MD for the number of pitches they can throw in a week, so I imagine that's the same around the country.

Just scroll up about five posts to a link to all the HS pitch limits state by state.  

[Tony-OH]

20 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Just scroll up about five posts to a link to all the HS pitch limits state by state.  

Yeah, that's the old school information like what happened to Bundy in High School. When I was coaching High School in 2014 we had limits.