Should Mike Mussina’s number have been retired?

[SteveA]

12 hours ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Cuellar was on a better team in a better pitcher's park in a better pitching environment.  Nothing against Cueller, but I think when you compare the eras and the teams, Mussina was better. 

And is that what retiring uniforms is about?   Who is statistically and mathematically proven to be better?

[Just playing devil's advocate here, I'm against retiring the #.   But thinking you can "settle" an argument about honoring someone who meant something to the franchise based on pure numbers is silly.   Retiring a jersey is based on what someone meant to a franchise and fanbase,, and yes  helping them win a World Series contributes to what they meant even if it doesn't make them a statistically better player in any way].

 

[Jammer7]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'll also add here that the days of players hating the opponents like fans do is long gone.  Long, long gone.  Sure, there might be some rivalries in the game where teams don't necessarily like each other (White Sox and Yankees certainly heated up over the weekend.  Giants/Dodgers, Card/Cubs, Sox/Yanks) but the rivalries are mostly for the fans.  I think the players get into it too, but only to a certain extent.

That certain extent ends when you realize that these guys are all millionaires and play for the money, full stop.  I'm sure they all want to win, but they want to have their cake and eat it too, which is fine.  I don't begrudge a player for making more somewhere else.  The days of a player sticking with a team for his entire career are long gone.  Sure, you have a guy like Trout, but let's not forget that the Angels gave him a massive deal before he could ever hit free agency.  

That certain extent also ends when you realize that these guys all work out together in the offseason at various places like Driveline, etc.  We've got a thread going about Manny Machado, IIRC he was working out with guys on other teams in Miami in the offseasons when he was here.  

It's just not the 50s and 60s anymore where players played for one team for the bulk of their careers and real rivalries existed.  

Rivalries are for the fans.  I don't believe they're for the players anymore.  Maybe a little, but it's certainly not the way it used to be.

I agree, completely. Maybe the younger generation of fans is similar that way as they have not experienced the heated rivalries themselves. The expanded playoffs probably adds to the average fan’s ambivalence.

The game itself, is supposed to be for the fans. I mean, from an old guy perspective, the players entertain the fans for a price. If a player chooses to become an outcast with a particular fan base by signing with their most hated rival, he should expect the fans to not support him. Maybe even despise him as a player. I don’t hate the guy, on a personal level. But I am not wanting to look at a statue or even some kind of remembrance that Mussina went to the Yankees and helped them win.

I totally support him leaving. The Orioles organization was a complete dumpster fire. I would bet he really struggled with leaving. He seems like a very intelligent loyal down to earth family guy. Perfect for Baltimore, and it’s fans. I sure wish we had Mike and Ben coming in now. Of course, Ben would have spent more than a few weeks in the minors…lol.

[Moose Milligan]

13 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

I agree, completely. Maybe the younger generation of fans is similar that way as they have not experienced the heated rivalries themselves. The expanded playoffs probably adds to the average fan’s ambivalence.

The game itself, is supposed to be for the fans. I mean, from an old guy perspective, the players entertain the fans for a price. If a player chooses to become an outcast with a particular fan base by signing with their most hated rival, he should expect the fans to not support him. Maybe even despise him as a player. I don’t hate the guy, on a personal level. But I am not wanting to look at a statue or even some kind of remembrance that Mussina went to the Yankees and helped them win.

I totally support him leaving. The Orioles organization was a complete dumpster fire. I would bet he really struggled with leaving. He seems like a very intelligent loyal down to earth family guy. Perfect for Baltimore, and it’s fans. I sure wish we had Mike and Ben coming in now. Of course, Ben would have spent more than a few weeks in the minors…lol.

Back in the day, I took a little bit of solace knowing that the Yankees won the World Series a year after Mussina retired.  

Ultimately I think we want some of these guys to care about the rivalries as much as we do and it's disappointing when we find out that they don't.

[drdelaware]

16 hours ago, Frobby said:

How ridiculous is this argument?   Mussina had a better W-L record while playing on worse teams.  He played in a much more offense-friendly era than Cuellar.  Mussina’s 130 ERA+ as an Oriole dwarfs Cuellar’s 109.   I loved Cuellar but Mussina was by far the better pitcher.   The fact that Cuellar played on three WS teams is irrelevant, it just reflects that Cuellar had a much better team around him than Mussina did.  

Ridiculous?  We will have to agree to disagree.  Simple fact is Mussina never won anything.  Hated pitching past the 6th or 7th.  He was a great pitcher though.  Retiring that number for him and not including Cuellar is what would be ridiculous.  If it were for both?  Maybe.

[Frobby]

43 minutes ago, drdelaware said:

Ridiculous?  We will have to agree to disagree.  Simple fact is Mussina never won anything.  Hated pitching past the 6th or 7th.  He was a great pitcher though.  Retiring that number for him and not including Cuellar is what would be ridiculous.  If it were for both?  Maybe.

My “ridiculous” description was aimed at the specific arguments that you made for Cuellar in your prior post:

1.   Relying on the fact that Cuellar’s W-L record was somewhere close to Mussina’s, without accounting for the fact that Cuellar played on much better teams.  
2.  Relying on the fact that Cuellar had a lower raw ERA, without accounting for the fact that Mussina played in a more hitter-friendly era, in a more hitter-friendly ballpark, and had nowhere near the defensive support that Cuellar did. 
3.  Relying on the fact that Cuellar went to three World Series, again without accounting for the fact that Cuellar’s teammates were way better than Mussina’s.  

So, now I’m going to your “Mussina hated pitching beyond the sixth or seventh inning” argument.  In his 9.5 seasons in Baltimore, Mussina finished top 5 in the league in IP four times, top 10 six times.  He was in the top 5 in complete games twice, top 10 five times.    By my count, he pitched at last into the 8th inning in 125 of his 288 starts as an Oriole.  So that argument is flatly wrong.

The “Mussina never won anything” argument is just a rehash of the “Cuellar went to three WS” argument, addressed above.  

Please understand that I haven’t argued that Mussina’s number should be retired.  I’m essentially neural on that.  But his case to have his number retired is better than Cuellar’s.

You want to retire the number in honor of their combined accomplishments?   I could get behind that.   The Yankees retired number 8 in honor of both Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra; they didn’t choose who deserved it more.  That would have been a very close call if the Yankees had to choose.   Much closer than Cuellar vs. Mussina.  

One of my biggest problems with retiring Cuellar’s number, is what do you do with McNally?   

 

[Gofannon]

38 minutes ago, Frobby said:

My “ridiculous” description was aimed at the specific arguments that you made for Cuellar in your prior post:

1.   Relying on the fact that Cuellar’s W-L record was somewhere close to Mussina’s, without accounting for the fact that Cuellar played on much better teams.  
2.  Relying on the fact that Cuellar had a lower raw ERA, without accounting for the fact that Mussina played in a more hitter-friendly era, in a more hitter-friendly ballpark, and had nowhere near the defensive support that Cuellar did. 
3.  Relying on the fact that Cuellar went to three World Series, again without accounting for the fact that Cuellar’s teammates were way better than Mussina’s.  

So, now I’m going to your “Mussina hated pitching beyond the sixth or seventh inning” argument.  In his 9.5 seasons in Baltimore, Mussina finished top 5 in the league in IP four times, top 10 six times.  He was in the top 5 in complete games twice, top 10 five times.    By my count, he pitched at last into the 8th inning in 125 of his 288 starts as an Oriole.  So that argument is flatly wrong.

The “Mussina never won anything” argument is just a rehash of the “Cuellar went to three WS” argument, addressed above.  

Please understand that I haven’t argued that Mussina’s number should be retired.  I’m essentially neural on that.  But his case to have his number retired is better than Cuellar’s.

You want to retire the number in honor of their combined accomplishments?   I could get behind that.   The Yankees retired number 8 in honor of both Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra; they didn’t choose who deserved it more.  That would have been a very close call if the Yankees had to choose.   Much closer than Cuellar vs. Mussina.  

One of my biggest problems with retiring Cuellar’s number, is what do you do with McNally?   

 

There is no true argument in favor of retiring Mike Cuellar's number and no one has ever suggested it before now. It is only a weak part of an argument not to retire Mussina’s number.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Back in the day, I took a little bit of solace knowing that the Yankees won the World Series a year after Mussina retired.  

Ultimately I think we want some of these guys to care about the rivalries as much as we do and it's disappointing when we find out that they don't.

We all think of the players as bleeding black and orange, or we did as kids.  They're Orioles, of course they love the team like we do.

But then after a while you think, huh, Manny grew up in Miami.  Mussina in Pennsylvania, closer to Philly or Pittsburgh or NYC than Baltimore.  Nick Markakis went to high school maybe an hour from Atlanta.

What team does most everyone root for?  The team they followed when they were a kid.  A long time ago I made peace with the fact that 95% of Orioles grew up rooting for some other team and they're never going to love the team like I did when I was 12.  It would be like if I was drafted by the  D'backs.  What do I care about the D'backs besides they happened to draft me?  I'd still look for the O's box score every day.

[DrungoHazewood]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

One of my biggest problems with retiring Cuellar’s number, is what do you do with McNally?  

Mine is that you'd have to retire about a dozen other guys' who were just as meaningful to the organization.

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

We all think of the players as bleeding black and orange, or we did as kids.  They're Orioles, of course they love the team like we do.

But then after a while you think, huh, Manny grew up in Miami.  Mussina in Pennsylvania, closer to Philly or Pittsburgh or NYC than Baltimore.  Nick Markakis went to high school maybe an hour from Atlanta.

What team does most everyone root for?  The team they followed when they were a kid.  A long time ago I made peace with the fact that 95% of Orioles grew up rooting for some other team and they're never going to love the team like I did when I was 12.  It would be like if I was drafted by the  D'backs.  What do I care about the D'backs besides they happened to draft me?  I'd still look for the O's box score every day.

The thing is, Mussina was pretty loyal.  He signed one three year extension at a home team discount.  He offered the O’s the opportunity to extend him again for 5/$62.5 mm before he ever went on the FA market.  It’s Angelos who wasn’t loyal, so we shouldn’t make Mussina out to be some soldier of fortune.   

Once he decided to go the FA route, however, there’s no reason in the world why he should have turned down the Yankees’ 6/$88.5 mm because it was from the Yankees.   Giving your own team a chance to resign you at a fair price is one thing; refusing to sign with your old team’s rival out of loyalty to your old team that wouldn’t pay you nearly what you were worth is just way too much to expect.   To suggest Mussina is any kind of turncoat is just absurd in my opinion.    So, you don’t want to retire his number?   Fine.  But don’t tell me it’s because he signed with the Yankees, as opposed to some other team.  That’s ludicrous.
 

[drdelaware]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

My “ridiculous” description was aimed at the specific arguments that you made for Cuellar in your prior post:

1.   Relying on the fact that Cuellar’s W-L record was somewhere close to Mussina’s, without accounting for the fact that Cuellar played on much better teams.  
2.  Relying on the fact that Cuellar had a lower raw ERA, without accounting for the fact that Mussina played in a more hitter-friendly era, in a more hitter-friendly ballpark, and had nowhere near the defensive support that Cuellar did. 
3.  Relying on the fact that Cuellar went to three World Series, again without accounting for the fact that Cuellar’s teammates were way better than Mussina’s.  

So, now I’m going to your “Mussina hated pitching beyond the sixth or seventh inning” argument.  In his 9.5 seasons in Baltimore, Mussina finished top 5 in the league in IP four times, top 10 six times.  He was in the top 5 in complete games twice, top 10 five times.    By my count, he pitched at last into the 8th inning in 125 of his 288 starts as an Oriole.  So that argument is flatly wrong.

The “Mussina never won anything” argument is just a rehash of the “Cuellar went to three WS” argument, addressed above.  

Please understand that I haven’t argued that Mussina’s number should be retired.  I’m essentially neural on that.  But his case to have his number retired is better than Cuellar’s.

You want to retire the number in honor of their combined accomplishments?   I could get behind that.   The Yankees retired number 8 in honor of both Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra; they didn’t choose who deserved it more.  That would have been a very close call if the Yankees had to choose.   Much closer than Cuellar vs. Mussina.  

One of my biggest problems with retiring Cuellar’s number, is what do you do with McNally?   

 

With you there.  That is the big part of retiring numbers.  Where do you stop?

O's HOF is good enough for both Mussina and Cuellar.  Not advocating the number for either of them.

Side note another O's Hall of Famer wore #35 too.

[drdelaware]

51 minutes ago, Gofannon said:

There is no true argument in favor of retiring Mike Cuellar's number and no one has ever suggested it before now. It is only a weak part of an argument not to retire Mussina’s number.

I'm not suggesting retiring #35 for Cuellar or Mussina.  However if you do that for MM, then Cuellar becomes part of the equation.

Only number at the moment I would retire is #44 for Elrod.  I don't care if he isn't a Hall of Famer.  Meant so much to this franchise.  I would advocate that one.

Edited May 25, 2022 by drdelaware

[HbgOsFan]

19 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The thing is, Mussina was pretty loyal.  He signed one three year extension at a home team discount.  He offered the O’s the opportunity to extend him again for 5/$62.5 mm before he ever went on the FA market.  It’s Angelos who wasn’t loyal, so we shouldn’t make Mussina out to be some soldier of fortune.   

Once he decided to go the FA route, however, there’s no reason in the world why he should have turned down the Yankees’ 6/$88.5 mm because it was from the Yankees.   Giving your own team a chance to resign you at a fair price is one thing; refusing to sign with your old team’s rival out of loyalty to your old team that wouldn’t pay you nearly what you were worth is just way too much to expect.   To suggest Mussina is any kind of turncoat is just absurd in my opinion.    So, you don’t want to retire his number?   Fine.  But don’t tell me it’s because he signed with the Yankees, as opposed to some other team.  That’s ludicrous.
 

I have always been a little frosted at Mussina signing with the Yankees.  But as usual, I appreciate  Frobby's  analysis, which I always find to be thorough and balanced, and that is valuable.  I am reconsidering my thoughts about Mussina, not that I expect the world to stop and take notice.  Another reason why these message boards and the posters are so valuable.  Sorry for the ramble.

[DrungoHazewood]

43 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The thing is, Mussina was pretty loyal.  He signed one three year extension at a home team discount.  He offered the O’s the opportunity to extend him again for 5/$62.5 mm before he ever went on the FA market.  It’s Angelos who wasn’t loyal, so we shouldn’t make Mussina out to be some soldier of fortune.   

Once he decided to go the FA route, however, there’s no reason in the world why he should have turned down the Yankees’ 6/$88.5 mm because it was from the Yankees.   Giving your own team a chance to resign you at a fair price is one thing; refusing to sign with your old team’s rival out of loyalty to your old team that wouldn’t pay you nearly what you were worth is just way too much to expect.   To suggest Mussina is any kind of turncoat is just absurd in my opinion.    So, you don’t want to retire his number?   Fine.  But don’t tell me it’s because he signed with the Yankees, as opposed to some other team.  That’s ludicrous.
 

But.. but... he grew up not rooting for the Orioles and ended up playing for them because (among other things) the Mariners valued Marc Newfield way more than Mussina, so he should have just re-upped for whatever the O's offer forever.  And if that didn't happen he should have signed with the Rangers or something to spare my feelings. 

[mrbig1]

20 minutes ago, HbgOsFan said:

I have always been a little frosted at Mussina signing with the Yankees.  But as usual, I appreciate  Frobby's  analysis, which I always find to be thorough and balanced, and that is valuable.  I am reconsidering my thoughts about Mussina, not that I expect the world to stop and take notice.  Another reason why these message boards and the posters are so valuable.  Sorry for the ramble.

Agree a 100%. when Mussina and Wells sign with the MFY, they were dead to me.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

But.. but... he grew up not rooting for the Orioles and ended up playing for them because (among other things) the Mariners valued Marc Newfield way more than Mussina, so he should have just re-upped for whatever the O's offer forever.  And if that didn't happen he should have signed with the Rangers or something to spare my feelings. 

You know what really pissed me off?  When Elrod Hendricks and Paul Blair went and played for the Yankees!   Of course, the Orioles did trade them there.  But they should have just retired!