Jorge Lopez traded to Twins for pitching prospects (edit)

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think it was a solid trade.   Povich is a potential MOR starter and I’m intrigued by Juan Rojas, who was very good in the FCL at age 18.   We needed more young pitching depth and the move accomplished that.  Of course we’ll see how it all turns out, but I think the logic of the move was sound.  

It did hurt us last year but we sold high on Lopez and he did fade in the 2nd half.   I'm not sure it made a huge difference in the grand scheme.   We got 4 players back.   Povich is a legitimate starter prospect.   Nunez is 22 and throws mid 90's and has been described as interesting.   Rojas is a wilcard.   Cano could be useful but he could be nothing.   He's got interesting stuff but he's been terrible so far in the majors.     I think it was a great trade.   It would have looked even better if Khrieble hadn't imploded in the 2nd half.

And how about Seth Johnson and Chayse McDermott to more really good arms for Mancini, who did nothing after the trade and was a rental?

Two trades that improved our pitching depth for two players who faded in the 2nd half, one of which was a rental.

Edited January 31, 2023 by RZNJ

[Tony-OH]

I liked the trade then and I like the trade now.

The trade allowed Bautista to close and while it did tax guys like Krehbiel, it also allowed Baker to step up a bit too.

Lopez wasn't great and I definitely don't think we make up the three games if he was still an Oriole. In fact, with his blown saves, maybe we end up worse and don't have Povich and the two lottery ticket FCL guys in the system.

Sure, Givens looks like an overpay a bit, but he was pretty good before his injury and the hope is he can be a consistent arm along with Tate and Baker setting up Bautista. If Wells goes to the pen, that's another guy in that mix.

Obviously, whether this trade works out in the end will really be on how Povich develops or if one of the lottery tickets and Cano perform. To me, getting four arms for Lopez was a good deal and even if the young guys fail to add impact one day, the idea of the trade was right, just then you have to question the scouting analysis.

[forphase1]

It was a good trade then, and I think it was still a good trade now.  While we can never know for sure how Lopez would have performed here versus Min, given how poorly he pitched I don't see him being the difference in us making up those 3 games.  In fact it could be argued that we'd have missed the playoffs by even more if we stuck with him as he may have blown more saves here than Bautista did, and we ended up with a slightly worse record.  Who knows.  But if you ask me it was a good trade in '22 and I'd rather have Given and the prospects today in '23 than just Lopez.  

[Jammer7]

Lopez was coddled so much by Hyde and Holt. His confidence was extremely fragile. A very talented, but emotionally unstable guy for a pro athlete. His good outings were bound to implode at some point, and as he showed with the Twins, he does not bounce back very well. Great guy and all, and I wish him well. I believe this trade was the optimal result of Lopez’ tenure as an Oriole.

As far as Givens goes, meh. A solid and dependable guy, not a star to me at all. Certainly not a reliable back end guy, but he should help alleviate some of the innings load for the pen. And, he brings the dreaded veteran presence. lol

[LookinUp]

If I accept the premise that the O's make the playoffs without either the Lopez or Mancini trades, I guess it becomes a little harder to answer. But even with that premise, I think the O's were incredibly flawed offensively in particular and very unlikely to make any noise in those playoffs.

But given that Lopez and Mancini weren't good after being traded, and we got a bunch of arms, the trades look even better to me today than when they were made.

[oriole]

Never been a fan of the trade I don’t think. Povich doesn’t excite me and the rest was filler. But it was the right call to trade him for the best possible package. He was clearly playing above his head at the time

[Frobby]

16 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

Lopez was coddled so much by Hyde and Holt. His confidence was extremely fragile. A very talented, but emotionally unstable guy for a pro athlete. 

Thank you, Dr. Freud.  What do you know about his emotional stability?   This guy has been through way more stressful situations than blowing a couple of saves.    Why do you say the O’s coddled him?  I didn’t see that at all.  The guy had 6 saves and 4 wins for us last year in games where he pitched more than an inning (and also 2 losses, one of which was also a blown save).   He was asked to get saves on consecutive nights 4 times (one of those times, he blew both games), and another where he got a save one night and pitched in extra innings the next night.  I don’t see any coddling there.  

[Moose Milligan]

I thought this was a really good trade at the time and it has the potential to be a fantastic one.  Lopez didn't do as well in the 2nd half and we got some guys who might pan out.  Povich is definitely a guy to watch this season.

 

[spiritof66]

Roughly an even trade, I thought at the time, but I didn't like it. Along with not acquiring anyone who reasonably could be expected to help the team immediately, swapping Lopez for prospects sent the message that Elias (and, if he had the capacity to be a thoughtful participant in these decisions, John Angelos) didn't believe the Orioles had a real shot at the post-season. Not a good message, but that water is likely well under the bridge or over the damn, or wherever.

I do wonder whether the nothing-big offseason sends the same message for 2023 to some of the Orioles' core guys who have been waiting, while with the Orioles or advancing through the minors, to play post-season baseball and may think this team is on the brink of being ready to be there. 

I know virtually nothing about the psyches of professional athletes or how they might affect performance, but I know enough about human nature generally to ask a question. While I suppose there are guys competing for rotation spots or to remain on the 26-man roster who are relieved that the Orioles didn't significantly upgrade their starting staff, have some of the core position players, like many of us, been disappointed, or at least been unclear what's going on, when Elias declared lift-off had arrived, acknowledged a need to upgrade starting pitching, and did so little to address that need? The players obviously can't say anything, but is there some doubt among the players about the team's ability to improve and shoot for the post-season based on their perception that Elias doesn't believe in the team, and if so might it have an adverse effect in 2023? 

[CharmCityHokie]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

Lopez was coddled so much by Hyde and Holt. His confidence was extremely fragile. A very talented, but emotionally unstable guy for a pro athlete. His good outings were bound to implode at some point, and as he showed with the Twins, he does not bounce back very well. Great guy and all, and I wish him well. I believe this trade was the optimal result of Lopez’ tenure as an Oriole.

As far as Givens goes, meh. A solid and dependable guy, not a star to me at all. Certainly not a reliable back end guy, but he should help alleviate some of the innings load for the pen. And, he brings the dreaded veteran presence. lol

How was he coddled? He took the ball every time the phone rang. Just because he wears his emotions on his sleeve at times doesn't make him 'extremely fragile'; pitchers yell, scream, stomp around the mound, stare in all the time, do all kinds of things. This is a bit over the top in terms of fan-diagnosis. 

[RZNJ]

12 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

Roughly an even trade, I thought at the time, but I didn't like it. Along with not acquiring anyone who reasonably could be expected to help the team immediately, swapping Lopez for prospects sent the message that Elias (and, if he had the capacity to be a thoughtful participant in these decisions, John Angelos) didn't believe the Orioles had a real shot at the post-season. Not a good message, but that water is likely well under the bridge or over the damn, or wherever.

I do wonder whether the nothing-big offseason sends the same message for 2023 to some of the Orioles' core guys who have been waiting, while with the Orioles or advancing through the minors, to play post-season baseball and may think this team is on the brink of being ready to be there. 

I know virtually nothing about the psyches of professional athletes or how they might affect performance, but I know enough about human nature generally to ask a question. While I suppose there are guys competing for rotation spots or to remain on the 26-man roster who are relieved that the Orioles didn't significantly upgrade their starting staff, have some of the core position players, like many of us, been disappointed, or at least been unclear what's going on, when Elias declared lift-off had arrived, acknowledged a need to upgrade starting pitching, and did so little to address that need? The players obviously can't say anything, but is there some doubt among the players about the team's ability to improve and shoot for the post-season based on their perception that Elias doesn't believe in the team, and if so might it have an adverse effect in 2023? 

I think baseball players care about the team and care about winning but above all else they care about performing and putting themselves in a position to make as much money as possible.   That's motivation.   One thing Elias has created is some depth at the ML level and a farm system ready to produce.   That's gotta motivate players at both levels to spend the offseason getting as ready as possible to compete, for their jobs and a place on a ML team.

[Sports Guy]

He likely would have given up more runs(because he’s not a sub 2 ERA guy) but I think he fares better in Baltimore than he did in Minnesota.

 

[Jammer7]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

Thank you, Dr. Freud.  What do you know about his emotional stability?   This guy has been through way more stressful situations than blowing a couple of saves.    Why do you say the O’s coddled him?  I didn’t see that at all.  The guy had 6 saves and 4 wins for us last year in games where he pitched more than an inning (and also 2 losses, one of which was also a blown save).   He was asked to get saves on consecutive nights 4 times (one of those times, he blew both games), and another where he got a save one night and pitched in extra innings the next night.  I don’t see any coddling there.  

Wow, nice. His body language was ridiculously weak. If they thought he would keep doing as well as he did, they would have kept him. Let’s be honest. They saw the same thing, and they unloaded him pretty quickly.

Hey, I’m no doctor, but I do know horrible body language. If you want to believe he is wonderful, carry on buddy. 

[Jammer7]

2 hours ago, CharmCityHokie said:

How was he coddled? He took the ball every time the phone rang. Just because he wears his emotions on his sleeve at times doesn't make him 'extremely fragile'; pitchers yell, scream, stomp around the mound, stare in all the time, do all kinds of things. This is a bit over the top in terms of fan-diagnosis. 

Sure, he took the ball. But he had to be handled differently and counseled constantly. They talked to him a lot. You can call it over the top, or whatever, doesn’t mean it isn’t accurate. I mean, if he wasn’t as I described, why move him? Cost-controlled for a few years, nasty stuff. Why send him out? Great guy and all. Just soft. Man, some folks have a very short memory. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

Wow, nice. His body language was ridiculously weak. If they thought he would keep doing as well as he did, they would have kept him. Let’s be honest. They saw the same thing, and they unloaded him pretty quickly.

Hey, I’m no doctor, but I do know horrible body language. If you want to believe he is wonderful, carry on buddy. 

I am okay with the trade, I just don’t rely on amateur psychoanalysis for my opinion.  You don’t like his body language, fine, but don’t you think “emotionally unstable” is going a bit far?