This triple by Gunnar

[Malike]

9 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

I’m not down on Gunnar’s glove. He is playing great. I know we had Schoop but Gunnar at 2nd would be a waste of an arm. 
 

The only way this whole conversation would even have a chance of playing  out would be if the Orioles thought that Ortiz was as good as Belanger with the glove. 

Ortiz is most assuredly going to hit a lot more than Belanger and by most accounts, he's the best defensive player in our system right now.

[RZNJ]

Just now, Malike said:

Ortiz is most assuredly going to hit a lot more than Belanger and by most accounts, he's the best defensive player in our system right now.

And this is where it’s just not about the defense.   Do they envision as a starting ML SS on the Orioles, another team, or someone who bounces around all 3 spots as a utility or super utility guy.   

[eddie83]

3 minutes ago, Malike said:

Ortiz is most assuredly going to hit a lot more than Belanger and by most accounts, he's the best defensive player in our system right now.

Ok. Doesn’t mean he is playing SS for us. 

[Malike]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

And this is where it’s just not about the defense.   Do they envision as a starting ML SS on the Orioles, another team, or someone who bounces around all 3 spots as a utility or super utility guy.   

It's a really good problem to have. We have so many options, that it makes for very hard decisions.

[Malike]

Just now, eddie83 said:

Ok. Doesn’t mean he is playing SS for us. 

I never said he was. I'm saying he's the best defensive shortstop we currently have in the system, and he's going to hit more than Belanger. 

[Bemorewins]

22 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Speaking of I’m sure his dad and Boras had zero discussions with the Orioles prior to the draft about his position. 

I don’t believe that it is likely that they did either. I was speaking to the fact that the people who are most vested in his professional success beyond him, would be very happy with a career that produced multiple all star game appearances even if it was not at the position that they most desired/envisioned for him. Semien after all signed a 175 million dollar contract “to only play 2B”.

[Sports Guy]

54 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

It’s illogical that’s why. He would not be the top prospect in the sport if he wasn’t capable of playing SS. 
 

You don’t move someone off a position they can handle to play an inferior position. A LT in football doesn’t get moved to G. 

Actually, LT quite often play guard their first season.

[Bemorewins]

19 minutes ago, deward said:

Boras and Matt Holliday don't get to make decisions about what is best for the O's. If the O's feel like their optimal alignment is to put Holliday at 2b, CF, C, or batboy, then Holliday has to suck it up and deal with for at least six years. He's already been getting some time at 2b in the minors, I saw an interview somewhere saying that he liked 2b and was happy to do whatever helps the team. I don't see the problem if that's where he ends up.

If you want any chance at extending him long term than Boras and his dad are most likely going to be factors in some way shape or form. 

I’m not saying that the O’s would/could sign him for the longer term. But for those advocating for the “Raysian”/pipeline or whatever you want to call it approach, you must accept the reality that even the Rays are proactive at trying to lock up the special position players because they realize that it is not easy or even realistic that even they (with all of their tremendous development) can duplicate the special ones. 
 

[Hallas]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think so.

The impact of getting rid of the shift hasn't been great.

 

I don't think it's right to say that just because BABIP on grounders is only up .010 or .015 the shift isn't going to impact valuations on defense. The obvious conclusion here to me is that the average 2B is capable of making most of the plays necessary to keep BABIP at this level, but when you hit the upper and lower extremes of 2B defense, it's going to have  abigger effect than it did in years past.

 

It's tough to make wholesale conclusions because we only have 1 year of non-shift data, but according to OAA, it does appear that, outside of Jonathan Schoop in 2022, the variance on 2B defense is a bit larger in 2023 than it was in prior years.

[Hallas]

44 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Actually, LT quite often play guard their first season.

I can't recall seeing left tackles play guard to start their careers, certainly not with any amount of frequency.  I see them play right tackle to start their career sometimes.  The physical requirements for interior linemen are a little bit different and there isn't a perfect translation of skills between tackle and guard.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hallas

[HandsomeQuack]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

2B does not have the same value as SS or 3rd. You have to know this. You would be getting a ton of offense at a position that usually does not have it. It’s the same logic with Adley. He would not carry the same value as a 1B. 
 

If Jeter played second instead of SS he is a HOF? First ballot? 

Jeter had what, 3,400 hits? He would be a first ballot HOFer at any position, and from a baseball standpoint he should have moved to 3rd when A-Roid came to town.

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

It’s illogical that’s why. He would not be the top prospect in the sport if he wasn’t capable of playing SS. 
 

You don’t move someone off a position they can handle to play an inferior position. A LT in football doesn’t get moved to G. 

Redskins did that with Brandon Scherff, he was a tackle whom the Skins took 5th overall and turned into an All-Pro guard.

But seriously, there is a difference between capable of playing SS and having the best possible alignment for the team placing you at SS. The team hypothetically putting him at 2B when he comes up doesn't negate his ability to play SS. Lots of good defenders play both positions (e.g., Tommy Edman, Andres Gimenez, Taylor Walls).

If Ortiz or Henderson has established himself at SS when Holliday comes up, 2B should be on the table.

And a lot is going to happen between now and the 2031 offseason when he will likely be a FA. Speculating on extending him and what maximizes the team's chances of doing that when he is 19 and in Bowie is very silly.

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I can't recall seeing left tackles play guard to start their careers, certainly not with any amount of frequency.  I see them play right tackle to start their career sometimes.  The physical requirements for interior linemen are a little bit different and there isn't a perfect translation of skills between tackle and guard.

It happens…Ogden did it. I believe Tunsil did as well.

[eddie83]

54 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Actually, LT quite often play guard their first season.

So Ogden played there his whole career? Taking long term here. 

[HandsomeQuack]

9 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I can't recall seeing left tackles play guard to start their careers, certainly not with any amount of frequency.  I see them play right tackle to start their career sometimes.  The physical requirements for interior linemen are a little bit different and there isn't a perfect translation of skills between tackle and guard.

Yeah, I know I cited an example in my last message but usually it's guys that aren't cutting it a tackle that move to guard. Ereck Flowers, for example.

[deward]

4 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

If you think those type of conversations didn’t happen before he was picked I honestly don’t know what to tell you. 

No, I don't think Elias promised Jackson Holliday that he gets to be the team's shortstop for as long as he wants, no matter what. Plans can change. The team isn't going to lock itself into an alignment they feel is suboptimal in order to keep a rookie happy, not even Jackson Holliday. If we're going with the idea that Holliday gets to dictate these things, what happens if Gunnar pushes back? Which former #1 prospect do you kowtow to? I'm sure they'd like everyone to be happy with wherever they end up playing, but the team needs come first. 

Now, if he's a Jeter-esque face of the franchise in six years and doesn't want to move OFF shortstop to make room for someone else, that could be a different conversation.