Could Elias call up our 19-year old SS phenom?

[banks703]

32 minutes ago, Uli2001 said:

How do you know if he's or he's not on anybody's level? He hasn't had a single at-bat in the majors. I am just curious where this certainty is coming from.

Because he isn’t. This is like telling me that I can’t say that your newborn son isn’t on their level because he hasn’t had any major league ABs. 

I bet your dad is stronger than my dad, huh? 

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, banks703 said:

The defense is not close and never will be close between them. Gunnar is head and shoulders above Holliday (and was at the same age) on the defensive side of the ball. 

I don’t disagree with what you wrote. I think Holliday slots in probably at 2B as Henderson stays at SS. I think that is likely to be the up the middle pair moving into the foreseeable future.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

He’s not “leapfrogging” anyone. He is already at the top of the pile at #1. He has no catching up to do at all.

He is almost assuredly to get better and stronger next year as he transitions from his teens. He is ALREADY our best prospect and very very likely to get/be better next year. 

I don’t think any other player (maybe Kerjstad) in our entire org has a 70 hit tool like Holliday does.

Semantics.  You are leapfrogging people if you are jumping ahead of good prospects with significant AAA experience and you started the year in low A and have barely played AA.  I’m not saying it might not be warranted, but it’s certainly leapfrogging.  

Edited August 13, 2023 by Frobby

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I don’t disagree with what you wrote. I think Holliday slots in probably at 2B as Henderson stays at SS. I think that is likely to be the up the middle pair moving into the foreseeable future.

They could play Holliday at short and he won’t kill the defense but he’s just not likely to be the best defensive option, especially on an Orioles team that has Gunnar, Westburg and at some point (hopefully) Ortiz. Holliday’s defense doesn’t push Gunnar off of short but Ortiz’s defense would. 

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, TopGunnar said:

Personally I don’t think he’s anywhere near MLB ready. A lot of his hits are singles. Which is still good. But I’d like to see him develop more power and more experience first. I don’t think we see him until late next season, and that’s if he is tearing the cover off the ball on the farm

He’s already “tearing the cover off the ball”. Just because he is not a power hitter right now before his grown man strength kicks in doesn’t mean that he can’t be an excellent hitter. 

How many prospects (or even Major Leaguers) have a 70 hit tool? How many players in all Minor Leagues are hitting .340 with a .460 on base?

What does he have to do to clear your hurdles/impress you? Just hit a bunch more home runs? Is it possible for him to be a wonderfully effective hitter without doing that right away? …. I know it was a decade ago, but Manny didn’t hit a bunch of home runs in his first full season.

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, banks703 said:

They could play Holliday at short and he won’t kill the defense but he’s just not likely to be the best defensive option, especially on an Orioles team that has Gunnar, Westburg and at some point (hopefully) Ortiz. Holliday’s defense doesn’t push Gunnar off of short but Ortiz’s defense would. 

Just curious, but how do you know?  Have you seen Holliday play a lot?

I really have no idea if Holliday is a better SS than Gunnar, either now or long term.  I do think Gunnar is pretty damned good. 

[yark14]

All this back and forth of whether Gunnar or Holliday end up at short is a complete waste of words and internet data.  There is a reason most of the infield prospects have spent time at 2nd, short, and 3rd.  That makes the parts interchangeable, which gives incredible flexibility and injury mitigation/load management.

No reason at all that an infield of Gunnar, Holliday, Ortiz, Westburg, and Ortiz can't coexist.  With all 5 of the adept at all positions, it doesn't make that much of a difference where the chips fall as long as they hit.

[Gurgi]

It really is odd as an Oriole fan to read debates on what the hell to do with all the terrific SS talent on the team and where exactly to put them all.

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, banks703 said:

They could play Holliday at short and he won’t kill the defense but he’s just not likely to be the best defensive option, especially on an Orioles team that has Gunnar, Westburg and at some point (hopefully) Ortiz. Holliday’s defense doesn’t push Gunnar off of short but Ortiz’s defense would. 

Here’s what I know - Holliday and Henderson are the most talented players in our org. They are the franchise cornerstones along with Adley and Grayson. None of them are going to get pushed anywhere as they are the best players that we have. They will all have positions of prominence and then everyone else will be staffed/positioned around them.

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Just curious, but how do you know?  Have you seen Holliday play a lot?

I really have no idea if Holliday is a better SS than Gunnar, either now or long term.  I do think Gunnar is pretty damned good. 

Yes sir, between the affiliates I go to 25+ games per year. I’ve seen him quite a bit. 

He is a great hitter. I have zero criticism of that part of his game. I’ve seen comps to Bryce Harper and honestly those comps are hard to argue, though I personally don’t think that Holliday can develop the raw power that Harper has always had in his game. Holliday is as pure of a hitter as the O’s have had in their system, maybe in my lifetime. I think that he’s a better than (major) league-average hitter right now. I just don’t think he profiles as a good major league shortstop.

There are lots of physical things that I could describe about him, like how his two halves are oddly proportioned, his stiff hips, his lack of arm strength, etc that I’ve mentioned in the past but I don’t want to keep coming across as overly critical of him. The kid is 19 so he has a lot of time to improve but there are just physical things that I don’t like about his profile as a shortstop. Could I be wrong? Of course. I don’t get paid to profile players but I am still loosely involved in scouting high schoolers so the things that I see are not conjured in my head and spoken out of the side of my mouth.

For me, the premier defender at the shortstop position in the system is Joey. As good as Gunnar has been this year, Joey is still a bit better with the glove. Even with Jorge’s drop off this year and Gunnar finding improved consistency, Jorge is still the better defender in my eyes but it’s much closer between the two of he and Gunnar than it was at the beginning of the year. It’s an unpopular opinion but I think Westburg has a better profile as a shortstop than Holliday, as does Urias. 

For me, it’s not that Holliday is going to be a butcher there. It’s simply that there are better options in the system. 

[banks703]

2 hours ago, yark14 said:

 it doesn't make that much of a difference where the chips fall as long as they hit.

You lost me with this comment. It very much does matter who plays and where. Just ask the Yankee teams with a premier ARod playing out of position at third so that Jeter could remain the face of the franchise at shortstop. 

[Just Regular]

Fun hearing national announcers say stuff like "Brendan Hays" and "Gunnar Henderson had a great start to his season".

Edit - not the Game thread, d'oh!

Edited August 13, 2023 by Just Regular

[sportsfan8703]

Bring em’ up. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by sportsfan8703

[Moose Milligan]

I'd say there's a small chance that they bring him up when rosters expand in September.  Get him a little playing time, get him a taste of a playoff push, let him know what he needs to work on to be on the ML roster on OD 2024.  

If we weren't in a playoff race and a race for the Division, I'd say there's a better chance that he comes up.  

[eddie83]

I think there is no chance.