John Angelos continues to remind us how awful he is

[Moose Milligan]

5 minutes ago, baltfan said:

If Gunnar or Adley would take an Acuna-like deal, I imagine that Elias and Sig would be screaming at Angelos he has to do it.  There would be literally no downside.  A contract like that would increase their trade value.  There is no scenario where an owner wouldn't sign a deal that increases a player's trade value.

I don't think Angelos wants to do it.  I personally think they're a little gun shy about the Chris Davis deal and how that backfired.  

[SemperFi]

1 hour ago, deward said:

Perhaps. My point is that it doesn't matter what JA wants in this case. It doesn't matter right now because he doesn't own the team, so he can't do it anyway. It won't matter going forward because he can't make that move without approval of the other owners and they won't give it. Nashville is going to get an expansion team once the Oakland and Tampa situations are settled. The O's aren't moving there, no matter how much JA wants to.

The Angelos family is absolutely despised by MLB-the "open the books" statement/Kevin Brown/financial bitching just over the last couple months....but it's much deeper than that-going back 20 years to his union stance/his profession/politics.  MLB will NEVER allow the Orioles to leave as long as an Angelos owns the team.  MLB holds all the leverage, the trump card being Orioles debt which is held by MLB.  My knowledge of the situation goes back 15 years and comes secondhand through the minority owner of a small market team that I worked for and trust without reservation.  Perhaps the relationship could have changed over time but I suspect that it has worsened particularly with the MASN debacle.

I will also add that although I have no clue what JA is doing and it just could be coincidence but everything he is pursuing is consistent with maximizing franchise value prior to sale:

-no long term contracts, new owner can control spending

-no naming rights to stadium/uniform patches

-securing not only $600m in upgrades but possibly a "Battery" like district

-elite baseball talent poised to win for years with an elite management team in place

The team is valued at $1.6b but that does not take into account the "turnkey" state of the franchise.  Given what Cohen and other owners committed last year to try to win what would someone similar pay to just walk into owning a WS caliber team and the ego stroking that comes with it?  

Beyond that does anyone on here really think JA even enjoys baseball.  I have never once read or heard a statement in which I thought he had an affinity for the Orioles or the game itself.  I haven't heard him mention in non generic terms the rich history of the franchise, the players/coaches/fans that made the memories that keep us all wedded to a franchise that has disappointed us for so many years.  Without a passion for the sport why continue after PA's death when it is by far the most ideal time to sell?

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by SemperFi

[maybenxtyr]

7 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Explain it to me succinctly, perhaps I am being a little dense about it.

I can't speak for everyone else, but the easiest way I can say it is, give Elias a budget that would allow him to make signings as he sees fit and the rest will take care of itself. Now, I guess you could say they have given him a budget and what we see is what we're going to get.

 

That brings me to the current issue of trying to be competitive more often than not. Obviously while the stars are young and affordable they are showing that they can field a competitive team. What happens in a few years when arb hits and it really takes a dig out of the 80 or so million that is his budget?

 

No one can control JA and his foot in mouth disease, but crying poor while payroll is about as low as can be should be a bit concerning to any fans that care about the team.

 

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Explain it to me succinctly, perhaps I am being a little dense about it.

He is crying poor me when that’s factual not true.

He is saying he has to massively raise prices to sign players to large contracts, which is factually not true.

The complaints about John A are the crybaby tactics where he is essentially acting like he has nothing and that everyone should feel sorry for him. He is holding the franchise and the fans hostage for something that is HIS own personal gain.

Let me restate that. What he wants to do has ZERO to do with the improvements to the stadium, the lease, etc..it’s about his own wealth and his own power.  That is it. 
 

So people are pissed about all of that.

You get the occasional person who thinks the team should spend 300+M on one player (which they could definitely do) or have a payroll north of 180M but for the most part, people aren’t calling for that.

They want the extensions we see all teams give. They want to see a normal investment in the teams payroll, one that we saw not that long ago.

None of this is asking too much.

 

[Sports Guy]

26 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Well, a couple things here...

Yes, it can get a little silly.  

We don't know if the young stars WON'T take the Acuna-like deals.  We also don't know if any of them have been offered.  

But let's assume for a second that they haven't been offered.  Let's assume for a second that the Orioles haven't offered an extension to Henderson, Adley, G-Rod, Westy, etc.  

It's hard for a guy to turn down a deal for 8 years, 160 million...no matter what.  No matter who you are.  Especially if you're in your early to mid 20s and that's money that can set you up for the rest of your life.  And your kids, and their kids.  It's practically guaranteeing that your family will be set up for generations to come if it's all taken care of properly.  

These guys also know that it could all go south tomorrow.  Gunnar could tear an ACL and not be the same player moving forward.  He could turn into Chris Davis.  He could get cancer like Trey Mancini and not be able to mount a successful comeback like he did.  He might want to wait it out and hit free agency...but to stare a couple hundred million in the face right now and turn it down?  That's some balls.  

You're right, the Red Sox let Mookie walk and they were kind of dumb for doing that, too.  That's a guy who should have spent his career in one uniform.  Yeah, he might not be the player at the end of his career that he was at the beginning, but there's a certain type of value that comes with spending a career with one team.  

You're also correct, they're investing heavily in development and scouting and all that stuff...but that also means that a guy like Gunnar can be expendable.  That in 5 or 6 years there's another guy ready to take his spot.  I mean, people are saying that Jackson Holiday is going to be ready to play here next year, what's that mean for Gunnar and Westy?  In a few years, are we going to have guys that can take all of their places?  

Do we care if Gunnar walks in a few years and there's some hot **** prospect coming up behind him?

 

My belief is that Gunnar would sign a 7 year deal, which allows him to still sign a mega deal before turning 30.

He’s going to make 45-50M the next 5 years if things go right. Put on 2 more years at an aav of 30ishM per year and that is a deal that would very hard to say no too.

As you said, you are basically guaranteeing him best case scenario. It’s not even a bargain for the Os. You just hope you get out in front of rising salaries in years to come and 28-33M a year is a bargain price.

If you are lucky, you can squeeze out an 8th year and that be your “bargain” year.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sports Guy

[deward]

42 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

You're also correct, they're investing heavily in development and scouting and all that stuff...but that also means that a guy like Gunnar can be expendable.  That in 5 or 6 years there's another guy ready to take his spot.  I mean, people are saying that Jackson Holiday is going to be ready to play here next year, what's that mean for Gunnar and Westy?  In a few years, are we going to have guys that can take all of their places?  

Do we care if Gunnar walks in a few years and there's some hot **** prospect coming up behind him?

 

We should care. Maybe they'll just be so good at drafting/developing that nothing matters, but it's a very optimistic scenario to assume where the team continues to churn out prospects on the level of Adley/Gunnar/Holliday on a regular basis, especially if they aren't picking near the top of the draft anytime soon (we hope). I think it's a mistake to assume that every player is easily replaceable through the prospect pipeline. Sure, the money isn't going to be there to sign them all, but a smart franchise should be spending the next couple of years figuring out who is the most indispensable and making a good faith effort to get him signed (like the Astros picking Altuve over Correa). 

[Sydnor]

52 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He is crying poor me when that’s factual not true.

He is saying he has to massively raise prices to sign players to large contracts, which is factually not true.

 

This is unquestionably true in my opinion. I haven’t read every post in this thread, but according to Statista (who I can vouch for the accuracy of), the Orioles already have the 10th highest average ticket price in MLB.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193673/average-ticket-price-in-the-mlb-by-team/

[baltfan]

51 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He is crying poor me when that’s factual not true.

He is saying he has to massively raise prices to sign players to large contracts, which is factually not true.

The complaints about John A are the crybaby tactics where he is essentially acting like he has nothing and that everyone should feel sorry for him. He is holding the franchise and the fans hostage for something that is HIS own personal gain.

Let me restate that. What he wants to do has ZERO to do with the improvements to the stadium, the lease, etc..it’s about his own wealth and his own power.  That is it. 
 

So people are pissed about all of that.

You get the occasional person who thinks the team should spend 300+M on one player (which they could definitely do) or have a payroll north of 180M but for the most part, people aren’t calling for that.

They want the extensions we see all teams give. They want to see a normal investment in the teams payroll, one that we saw not that long ago.

None of this is asking too much.

 

The Orioles are relatively poor compared to other franchises.  Yes, payroll can go up, but I don't think he is saying it can't.  I didn't see him saying they would have to trade everyone before they become free agents because they will be too expensive.  If you look at the Orioles attendance, they aren't exactly killing it.  They are 22nd.  Heck, the Reds were hot for a little bit and have a higher attendance.  The Orioles have been in first for over a month.  

As for a normal investment in payroll, the team is in first place.  I am not sure what more people want.  

[baltfan]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't think Angelos wants to do it.  I personally think they're a little gun shy about the Chris Davis deal and how that backfired.  

I can't imagine him not wanting to do the type of deal that everyone said was bad for the player and amazing for the team.  Tons of people thought the Davis deal was a bad deal and unlikely to age well.  

[accinfo]

5 minutes ago, deward said:

We should care. Maybe they'll just be so good at drafting/developing that nothing matters, but it's a very optimistic scenario to assume where the team continues to churn out prospects on the level of Adley/Gunnar/Holliday on a regular basis, especially if they aren't picking near the top of the draft anytime soon (we hope). I think it's a mistake to assume that every player is easily replaceable through the prospect pipeline. Sure, the money isn't going to be there to sign them all, but a smart franchise should be spending the next couple of years figuring out who is the most indispensable and making a good faith effort to get him signed (like the Astros picking Altuve over Correa). 

Yea, I agree with this whole heartily.  Most people here don’t expect to resign all the good ballplayers.  We aren’t the Yankees or the Dodgers and I don’t think anyone here deludes themselves that we are.  Gunnar, Adley, Grayson, and most likely Holliday can be generational type players.  What do 3 out of 4 of them have in common?  They were picked at the top of the draft?  Hopefully that isn’t going to happen that many times in the near future.  So it will become harder to find those type of players.  I love Cedric, Hayes, Santander, Westburg, and the good Mountcastle just to name a few but you can’t sign everyone and maintaining a farm system by strategically trading these players at the correct times and drafting well they can be replaced.  To expect to draft as well the next 3 or 4 years as we have the last is naive.  Holliday and Gunnar are Boros clients which may eliminate them from early deals.  He has done them before but it is the definitive exception.  That is up to them and is their right.  The problem I see and this bad publicity doesn’t help is there is so much uncertainty to the future of ownership of the Orioles.  I don’t think that helps an agent to encourage their clients to make long term commitments to the Orioles.  

[baltfan]

59 minutes ago, maybenxtyr said:

I can't speak for everyone else, but the easiest way I can say it is, give Elias a budget that would allow him to make signings as he sees fit and the rest will take care of itself. Now, I guess you could say they have given him a budget and what we see is what we're going to get.

 

That brings me to the current issue of trying to be competitive more often than not. Obviously while the stars are young and affordable they are showing that they can field a competitive team. What happens in a few years when arb hits and it really takes a dig out of the 80 or so million that is his budget?

 

No one can control JA and his foot in mouth disease, but crying poor while payroll is about as low as can be should be a bit concerning to any fans that care about the team.

 

Maybe what happens is that they have put themselves in a position by not signing overpriced free agents that they can continue to pay without having to deal off young guys because of bad contracts.  The Orioles have to figure out what they have in the minors.  It would be stupid to just sign some free agents that could block guys that are excelling in the minors.  I keep hearing about adding people but outside of Ohtani and maybe Nola, I am not sure who the Orioles should go after in the offseason.  ** I have said I would favor going after Yamamoto.

[jabba72]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't think Angelos wants to do it.  I personally think they're a little gun shy about the Chris Davis deal and how that backfired.  

Yeah team deals that expire when a player is like 30 is the smart way to do it. Let another team overpay for those years which are almost never as good.

[Baltimorecuse]

3 hours ago, Pickles said:

In fairness to Peter, he had a legitimate civic streak and did plenty of good for the city at his own expense.

I think Peter put a clause in that trust that prohibits the family from moving the team.  I can't prove that, but it's probably the reason it hasn't happened.  Now they wouldn't make that public because the threat to move is their best bargaining leverage.  

[CallMeBrooksie]

13 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

I think Peter put a clause in that trust that prohibits the family from moving the team.  I can't prove that, but it's probably the reason it hasn't happened.  Now they wouldn't make that public because the threat to move is their best bargaining leverage.  

There's zero chance that MLB would allow the O's to leave Baltimore, with or without a clause from Daddy Angelos. They have no leverage at all to move the team.

[Sports Guy]

42 minutes ago, baltfan said:

The Orioles are relatively poor compared to other franchises.  Yes, payroll can go up, but I don't think he is saying it can't.  I didn't see him saying they would have to trade everyone before they become free agents because they will be too expensive.  If you look at the Orioles attendance, they aren't exactly killing it.  They are 22nd.  Heck, the Reds were hot for a little bit and have a higher attendance.  The Orioles have been in first for over a month.  

As for a normal investment in payroll, the team is in first place.  I am not sure what more people want.  

Attendance is essentially determined before the first pitch of the season is ever thrown.

You won’t be in first place if you have to get rid of your players when they start making real money.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sports Guy