Mewleski: The infield depth seems to be leading to one conclusion – a trade is coming.

[Frobby]

38 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You just don’t want to to give up any real value to get someone that matters.

wildcard in December 1965: “we just won 94 games and have a good young team and a good farm system.  I don’t know why we’d trade a 26-year old star pitcher and two good prospects for a 30-year old outfielder.”  

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

wildcard in December 1965: “we just won 94 games and have a good young team and a good farm system.  I don’t know why we’d trade a 26-year old star pitcher and two good prospects for a 30-year old outfielder.”  

 

Probably advocated doing very little after 2012 and 2014 too.

[Frobby]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

 

Probably advocated doing very little after 2012 and 2014 too.

Seriously, wildcard is one of my favorite posters.  I just like ribbing him.  He’s always an optimist and we need that on this board.  

[interloper]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

Probably advocated doing very little after 2012 and 2014 too.

In his defense, no one was thinking about the farm system providing us much of anything in those years, so we HAD to make moves to stay in contention. Things are much different now to where it's at least somewhat defensible to say, let's sign a #4 SP and make a minor trade or two, but hold onto most if not all of our prospect assets. Would I do that? No. But I doubt it's something wildcard would have said in 2012. 

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Felix is right now being replaced by Kimbrel, Hall and Tate.   Maybe not as good as Felix but then again no one will be.  Its a good alternative.

The O's are a development team and we saw the development come together in the 2nd half.   Bradish 2.34 ERA,  GRod  2.58 ERA, Kremer 3.25 ERA.

Means has a 3.74 career ERA. In his last healthy year (2021) be had a 3.60 ERA in 146 IP.   When he came back in 2023 he had a 2.66 ERA.   I think his career ERA is a good guess in about 150 IP.  The defense and relief pitching is much better  now than in 2021.

Wells has shown over the last two years he can pitch to a 3.30 ERA for 15 starts.    Then there is Irvin and McDermott who should see some starts in 2024.

Do the O's need more starting pitching?  Its always  good to have more quality pitching.  But what  Elias is weighing is at what cost in prospects and dollars.    

The O's are probably in the best pitching shape they have been in, in many years.  The starters are better going into 2024 then they were in 2023 with the addition of Means,  a full year of GRod and the addition of McDermott sometime during the season.  While Bradish and Kremer are probably at their peak performance.

 

How can our pitching be in the best place it has been in when we got rid of a genuine wizard of a pitching coach?  Aren’t we going to have a drop off because Holt left?

Edited January 2 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, interloper said:

In his defense, no one was thinking about the farm system providing us much of anything in those years, so we HAD to make moves to stay in contention. Things are much different now to where it's at least somewhat defensible to say, let's sign a #4 SP and make a minor trade or two, but hold onto most if not all of our prospect assets. Would I do that? No. But I doubt it's something wildcard would have said in 2012. 

There is no defense to holding onto all of our assets.

You can’t play everyone and we have a clear and obvious need.

In 2012 and 2014 there were obvious needed to be addressed and the team failed to do it. They got complacent and made bad decisions. This version of the Os shouldn’t do the same.

[interloper]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

There is no defense to holding onto all of our assets.

You can’t play everyone and we have a clear and obvious need.

In 2012 and 2014 there were obvious needed to be addressed and the team failed to do it. They got complacent and made bad decisions. This version of the Os shouldn’t do the same.

I don't think wildcard has ever said he wants to hold onto "all" of our assets. I just think he doesn't want to trade the top OF guys who he views as replacing Hays and Santander. He thinks Holliday and Mayo will be in AAA. He thinks Ortiz will be on the 26-man. So that leaves perhaps trading guys like Mateo, Urias, and maybe Stowers (?). Maybe someone like Baumann to clear up the no-options backlog at the end of the bullpen. 

I think in this scenario, you still need to replace Gibson with someone just for the sake of depth and innings, and I think @wildcardwould agree with that. Whether that's a budget signing or a minor trade on the level of Cole Irvin. 

And I'm not saying I agree with all this necessarily, but I do think gun to my head this is the more likely scenario than the Orioles pulling off a blockbuster for Cease or Luzardo or whomever. 

Edited January 2 by interloper

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, interloper said:

I don't think wildcard has ever said he wants to hold onto "all" of our assets. I just think he doesn't want to trade the top OF guys who he views as replacing Hays and Santander. He thinks Holliday and Mayo will be in AAA. He thinks Ortiz will be on the 26-man. So that leaves perhaps trading guys like Mateo, Urias, and maybe Stowers (?). Maybe someone like Baumann to clear up the no-options backlog at the end of the bullpen. 

I think in this scenario, you still need to replace Gibson with someone just for the sake of depth and innings, and I think @wildcardwould agree with that. Whether that's a budget signing or a minor trade on the level of Cole Irvin. 

And I'm not saying I agree with all this necessarily, but I do think gun to my head this is the more likely scenario than the Orioles pulling off a blockbuster for Cease or Luzardo or whomever. 

Yes, as I said, he wants to trade players with little value that don’t bring us back really anything helpful.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Westburg is the most obvious trade candidate and the guy we should be shopping as the centerpiece of a package for a Luzardo/Gilbert type of pitcher.

He's a stud IF with a full 6 years of control coming off of a solid MLB debut and he is pretty superfluous here in Baltimore thanks to Gunnar, Urias, Holliday, Ortiz, Mayo, Norby, etc.

[baltfan]

It seems like a ton of team have a ton of infielders or infield prospects to trade for pitching.  This will likely make deals difficult as we likely tend to value our prospects more than their actual value given supply and demand.

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

How can our pitching be in the best place it has been in when we got rid of a genuine wizard of a pitching coach?  Aren’t we going to have a drop off because Holt left?

I am concerned about having a new pitching coach.   Holt will be around if needed is my guess.   Kind of wondering if there will be an assistant pitching coach.

[wildcard]

38 minutes ago, interloper said:

I don't think wildcard has ever said he wants to hold onto "all" of our assets. I just think he doesn't want to trade the top OF guys who he views as replacing Hays and Santander. He thinks Holliday and Mayo will be in AAA. He thinks Ortiz will be on the 26-man. So that leaves perhaps trading guys like Mateo, Urias, and maybe Stowers (?). Maybe someone like Baumann to clear up the no-options backlog at the end of the bullpen. 

I think in this scenario, you still need to replace Gibson with someone just for the sake of depth and innings, and I think @wildcardwould agree with that. Whether that's a budget signing or a minor trade on the level of Cole Irvin. 

And I'm not saying I agree with all this necessarily, but I do think gun to my head this is the more likely scenario than the Orioles pulling off a blockbuster for Cease or Luzardo or whomever. 

Thanks,  Nice to know someone is listening.

[sportsfan8703]

32 minutes ago, baltfan said:

It seems like a ton of team have a ton of infielders or infield prospects to trade for pitching.  This will likely make deals difficult as we likely tend to value our prospects more than their actual value given supply and demand.

I think this is true. However, I don’t think it’s as bad as some think. 

It was also nice having Bautista and Mateo as extra inning weapons last year. Teams couldn’t bunt against Bautista because he could just strike everyone out and it was hard to just make contact. Mateo’s speed got into some closer’s we saw that happen to Chapman and the closer from the Twins. 

[drjohnnyfever1]

Isn't the reason we have IF depth because we have vets contributing where farm pieces could be advancing?  Personally, I think the potentially advancing players are still under evaluation despite how well we did last year.  I think it's likely some of those potentially advancing players get a real good look in ST, maybe one or two get a chance starting opening day to platoon with the vets, and then we trade the vets if we're largely convinced the youth is what we hoped they would be.

Maybe I'm alone, but I don't really expect a trade right now.  I expect a minor FA SP signing more.

[rm5678]

4 hours ago, wildcard said:

I am concerned about having a new pitching coach.   Holt will be around if needed is my guess.   Kind of wondering if there will be an assistant pitching coach.

I believe Elias indicated that there will be an assistant pitching coach.