Jackson Holliday 2024

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

The Cowser comp last year is silly. He wasn’t getting consistent at bats when he got called up. And with an outfield of Hays, Mullins, Santander, Hicks and McKenna, he wasn’t going to. 
 

Hoisting up Cowser’s bad stint from last year like it’s some kind of proof that JH needs to be demoted right away is not a good argument. But you guys can keep making it since you think it’s some kind of victory. 

The comp is better than Grayson because at least Cowser was a hitter who was struggling and looked to have a hole in his swing. 
 

But yea, I don’t think sending him down made him a better player which is the victory people are taking laps on.0

[Aristotelian]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The comp is better than Grayson because at least Cowser was a hitter who was struggling and looked to have a hole in his swing. 
 

But yea, I don’t think sending him down made him a better player which is the victory people are taking laps on.0

Whether it helped or not, it clearly didn't hurt Cowser's development. It also helped the Orioles get more production from his spot and kept him eligible for ROY.

[SilentJames]

40 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The comp is better than Grayson because at least Cowser was a hitter who was struggling and looked to have a hole in his swing. 
 

But yea, I don’t think sending him down made him a better player which is the victory people are taking laps on.0

Sending Jackson down does nothing, there is nothing left to prove down there. He is taking good ABs, he is working counts, he looks fine in the field etc. I have used the Cowser comp, not to say he should be sent down, in the sense that Cowser looked particularly lost at times during his callup last year. Jackson is facing some professional adversity for the first time as a professional keep running him out there. 

 

The fortunate thing is he isn't hurting the team in a significant way right now, and when it finally does click the Orioles will be just that much better. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

The Cowser comp last year is silly.

You’re right.  Cowser had a .375 OBP in his first 32 PA, unlike Holliday’s .094.  They’re not at all comparable.  

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, SilentJames said:

Sending Jackson down does nothing, there is nothing left to prove down there. He is taking good ABs, he is working counts, he looks fine in the field etc. I have used the Cowser comp, not to say he should be sent down, in the sense that Cowser looked particularly lost at times during his callup last year. Jackson is facing some professional adversity for the first time as a professional keep running him out there. 

 

The fortunate thing is he isn't hurting the team in a significant way right now, and when it finally does click the Orioles will be just that much better. 

The last thing you said here is really the key for me.

Holliday makes us much better when he is playing where you think he can. So, how does he get better?

I said it a little tongue and cheek but it’s true..if his flaw right now is hitting ML pitching, how does he fix that playing in the minors?

If there something technically flawed about his swing?  Yea, he’s pulling off the ball, ok fine. That can’t be corrected in the majors?  The leg kick?  Maybe. It’s not like we haven’t seen hitters with high leg kicks be successful. 
 

But let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that the leg kick is the issue. Do we want him in AAA working on that or do we want him up here?

The Os are one of many teams now that are going to coaches that weren’t necessarily ML players but they are more mechanics coaches. They are like driveline guys now. The duo the Os have up here are like that.  They also have those guys in the minors.

So, where is he getting the better instruction?

I don’t know. I can’t say and that’s where I trust Elias. Like I said, he gets this week and really, more than that for me but I think this week he should get and then you can at least make some decision with more of a sample size.

I feel if he goes down, it must be because you feel there is a major change that needs to occur and you want him to do that in a lower pressure environment. I’m not worried about hurting his confidence or anything like that.  If he becomes a failure because of this struggle than he wasn’t going to become anything anyway.

 

[backwardsk]

32 minutes ago, SilentJames said:

Sending Jackson down does nothing, there is nothing left to prove down there. He is taking good ABs, he is working counts, he looks fine in the field etc. I have used the Cowser comp, not to say he should be sent down, in the sense that Cowser looked particularly lost at times during his callup last year. Jackson is facing some professional adversity for the first time as a professional keep running him out there. 

 

The fortunate thing is he isn't hurting the team in a significant way right now, and when it finally does click the Orioles will be just that much better. 

Sending him down gives the team control of age 26 season, no?

[Bemorewins]

I will say that it is a great luxury to have a team this good, where we can keep running him out there while he’s giving us nothing, and still score plenty of runs.

If we can get him going, at some point in this season, we may have the best offense in baseball. Yes, better than even the Braves and Rangers (and I guess Brewers who have mashed so far this year). 

[LookinUp]

54 minutes ago, SilentJames said:

Sending Jackson down does nothing, there is nothing left to prove down there. He is taking good ABs, he is working counts, he looks fine in the field etc. I have used the Cowser comp, not to say he should be sent down, in the sense that Cowser looked particularly lost at times during his callup last year. Jackson is facing some professional adversity for the first time as a professional keep running him out there. 

 

The fortunate thing is he isn't hurting the team in a significant way right now, and when it finally does click the Orioles will be just that much better. 

I think it's silly to say he has nothing left to prove in AAA and equally silly to say he's not hurting the ML team right now. He is definitely hurting us. We're just good enough to overcome it right now.

Holliday barely had a cup of coffee in AAA. He was only ok at the end of last year in AAA (.796 OPS) and had good stats when everyone on the team had over a 1.000 OPS against the lame White Sox team early this year. He also barely had a cup of coffee at 2B. Most importantly, he looks broken right now. 

There's every reason to put him into a position where he can decompress and find his legs again. While he's at it, he can figure out how not to drop his hands so he can compete at the top of the zone, and he can get more comfortable at 2b.

I love the kid and believe that he'll be as great as they say, but I definitely believe he was rushed in relation to how Elias has really made sure the other guys are more ready before promoting them. Nobody else got the Holliday treatment, and I don't think they should.

I would demote him and give Norby a shot, effective tomorrow.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Holliday looks to be in good spirits at least.

[interloper]

Kjerstad spent some time at the Holliday Compound this offseason, so hey, maybe it'll be a boost for the kid having another one of his buddies up here. 

[Sports Guy]

 

[BRobinsonfan]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The last thing you said here is really the key for me.

Holliday makes us much better when he is playing where you think he can. So, how does he get better?

I said it a little tongue and cheek but it’s true..if his flaw right now is hitting ML pitching, how does he fix that playing in the minors?

If there something technically flawed about his swing?  Yea, he’s pulling off the ball, ok fine. That can’t be corrected in the majors?  The leg kick?  Maybe. It’s not like we haven’t seen hitters with high leg kicks be successful. 
 

But let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that the leg kick is the issue. Do we want him in AAA working on that or do we want him up here?

The Os are one of many teams now that are going to coaches that weren’t necessarily ML players but they are more mechanics coaches. They are like driveline guys now. The duo the Os have up here are like that.  They also have those guys in the minors.

So, where is he getting the better instruction?

I don’t know. I can’t say and that’s where I trust Elias. Like I said, he gets this week and really, more than that for me but I think this week he should get and then you can at least make some decision with more of a sample size.

I feel if he goes down, it must be because you feel there is a major change that needs to occur and you want him to do that in a lower pressure environment. I’m not worried about hurting his confidence or anything like that.  If he becomes a failure because of this struggle than he wasn’t going to become anything anyway.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with SG on this one. I don't know if he should be sent down, but as SG said, “That's where I trust Elias.” I disagree a little bit on the “hurting his confidence” issue. I think hitting a baseball successfully is a lot like hitting a golf ball successfully… a lot of what impacts your success is what you have going on between your ears. While there's a danger in hurting his confidence by sending him out there every day while he's in a sustained slump, there's also a danger in sending him down to Norfolk. But, once again, I have to trust Elias and management on making that call. 

Edited April 23 by BRobinsonfan

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, LookinUp said:

I think it's silly to say he has nothing left to prove in AAA and equally silly to say he's not hurting the ML team right now. He is definitely hurting us. We're just good enough to overcome it right now.

Holliday barely had a cup of coffee in AAA. He was only ok at the end of last year in AAA (.796 OPS) and had good stats when everyone on the team had over a 1.000 OPS against the lame White Sox team early this year. He also barely had a cup of coffee at 2B. Most importantly, he looks broken right now. 

There's every reason to put him into a position where he can decompress and find his legs again. While he's at it, he can figure out how not to drop his hands so he can compete at the top of the zone, and he can get more comfortable at 2b.

I love the kid and believe that he'll be as great as they say, but I definitely believe he was rushed in relation to how Elias has really made sure the other guys are more ready before promoting them. Nobody else got the Holliday treatment, and I don't think they should.

I would demote him and give Norby a shot, effective tomorrow.

This team is good enough to win with Holliday, Norby, or Urias at 2B. I think the thought of staying with Holliday is that he has the highest ceiling by far of the 3. And if you can get him going so that by the end of the season he is ready for "take off", he gives you that one additional weapon that Norby nor Urias are.

IMO, there are several issues with turning to Norby to replace Holliday now. 

1) He has no long term place on this team. So you are in effect starting his Major League clock unnecessarily, when he most likely has more value to another org if he stays at AAA and can start his MLB clock on their choosing.

2) What if he struggles? Then what? Do you turn back to Holliday? If he struggles, it may damage his trade value.

3) What if Holliday regains his stroke at AAA? What do you do then even if Norby has managed to do a decent job or even a good job? Do you keep Holliday for the rest of the year?

4) And to me this is the biggest - What is the best use of his value? To be a bench player here long term? Or to be part of a trade that brings the Major League team something that it needs (in the pitching department)?

[LookinUp]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

This team is good enough to win with Holliday, Norby, or Urias at 2B. I think the thought of staying with Holliday is that he has the highest ceiling by far of the 3. And if you can get him going so that by the end of the season he is ready for "take off", he gives you that one additional weapon that Norby nor Urias are.

IMO, there are several issues with turning to Norby to replace Holliday now. 

1) He has no long term place on this team. So you are in effect starting his Major League clock unnecessarily, when he most likely has more value to another org if he stays at AAA and can start his MLB clock on their choosing.

2) What if he struggles? Then what? Do you turn back to Holliday? If he struggles, it may damage his trade value.

3) What if Holliday regains his stroke at AAA? What do you do then even if Norby has managed to do a decent job or even a good job? Do you keep Holliday for the rest of the year?

4) And to me this is the biggest - What is the best use of his value? To be a bench player here long term? Or to be part of a trade that brings the Major League team something that it needs (in the pitching department)?

We know that there will have to be tough roster decisions with this team in the near future. Is the plan to put those off until the offseason no matter what? If that's the plan, you might see a rationale for keeping the status quo. At the same time, I'd be fine with making one or two of those decisions by the deadline.

But let's be honest here, you're talking about the risk with one player (Norby) by making the change I'm saying to make. It's not going to derail the future of this team or even his trade value. 

At the same time, I think they're doing Holliday a disservice. He only played 36 games in AA, and half that in AAA, last year. They didn't even give those leagues the chance to adjust to him. I really, honestly, think they've rushed the kid. I think he's showing that he's not ready offensively, or even defensively at 2B. Heck, I think he's overhyped in general even though I definitely see him eventually as an above average 2B and top of the league leadoff hitter. But he's not the uber athlete, big powerful MOO bat that someone like a Gunnar is. He's more of Jeter profile. That's wonderful, but it's not an ARod profile either and Jeter did what he did with 10/10 intangibles.

I think there's more to gain by getting the extra year of service time and making sure he's ready, and I think that way outweighs the risks of losing some value on a guy like Norby.

[Aristotelian]

20 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

This team is good enough to win with Holliday, Norby, or Urias at 2B. I think the thought of staying with Holliday is that he has the highest ceiling by far of the 3. And if you can get him going so that by the end of the season he is ready for "take off", he gives you that one additional weapon that Norby nor Urias are.

IMO, there are several issues with turning to Norby to replace Holliday now. 

1) He has no long term place on this team. So you are in effect starting his Major League clock unnecessarily, when he most likely has more value to another org if he stays at AAA and can start his MLB clock on their choosing.

2) What if he struggles? Then what? Do you turn back to Holliday? If he struggles, it may damage his trade value.

3) What if Holliday regains his stroke at AAA? What do you do then even if Norby has managed to do a decent job or even a good job? Do you keep Holliday for the rest of the year?

4) And to me this is the biggest - What is the best use of his value? To be a bench player here long term? Or to be part of a trade that brings the Major League team something that it needs (in the pitching department)?

Giving Joey Ortiz a cup of coffee didn't do anything to his trade value. Cowser's probably did go down a bit due to the length and severity of his early struggles. Heck, I would have been OK with trading Cowser for Cease (I voted no, but more because of my view of Ortiz/Westburg). If Norby can pull an Evan Carter heater for a couple of weeks, who knows, it might work out the other way.