Jackson Holliday 2024

[Spy Fox]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

When people say a player was rushed, it usually  means the player has no chance to compete, is in over their heads, confident shot to hell and may not recover.

What you are saying isn’t that.  You are saying they could use more seasoning iyo.

Again, this may be semantics but rushed is usually a negative connotation that comes with ruining a players career.  

So no, I don’t think that exists unless it’s an example like I said.,going from HS to the majors or something over the top like that..which doesn’t happen.

Personally I take rushed to mean something a bit milder. I think you're using the word more absolutely than many do, and that's the disagreement. 

I would call a player rushed if they were brought up before they were ready to perform, and it damaged or delayed their development. Particularly if there was reason to doubt their readiness before the callup. But it doesn't have to be something that ruins them or that they never recover from for me to be willing to call it rushing. 

Now I'm not sure they rushed Holliday under either definition, since there was tons of evidence supporting the idea of bringing him up. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Spy Fox said:

Personally I take rushed to mean something a bit milder. I think you're using the word more absolutely than many do, and that's the disagreement. 

I would call a player rushed if they were brought up before they were ready to perform, and it damaged or delayed their development. Particularly if there was reason to doubt their readiness before the callup. But it doesn't have to be something that ruins them or that they never recover from for me to be willing to call it rushing. 

Now I'm not sure they rushed Holliday under either definition, since there was tons of evidence supporting the idea of bringing him up. 

But how does it damage or delay things?  What’s the time period for that?

 

Let’s say by Sunday, Holliday is 3-45 and they send him down.  He was up here for what, 2 weeks at that point?

Was he delayed?  Did that hurt his development?

Did Cowser’s development get hurt or damaged last year?  Did GRod get damaged?

Thats the thing.  To me, using words like that sound to me that they are career altering. 
 

For me, if that occurs, the player wasn’t going to be mentally tough to handle adversity no matter what his development was..that’s a big reason why I don’t believe in “rushed”.

 

[Spy Fox]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But how does it damage or delay things?  What’s the time period for that?

Let’s say by Sunday, Holliday is 3-45 and they send him down.  He was up here for what, 2 weeks at that point?

Was he delayed?  Did that hurt his development?

Did Cowser’s development get hurt or damaged last year?  Did GRod get damaged?

Thats the thing.  To me, using words like that sound to me that they are career altering. 

For me, if that occurs, the player wasn’t going to be mentally tough to handle adversity no matter what his development was..that’s a big reason why I don’t believe in “rushed”.

I wouldn't really call those specific players rushed. I just disagree with you that it's something that never happens or basically can't happen. 

I also disagree that if someone struggles mentally with something, and that changes their trajectory a bit, it means they were always destined to struggle with that thing because of lower mental toughness. I don't think that's very realistic to how people work and how careers evolve. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Spy Fox said:

I wouldn't really call those specific players rushed. I just disagree with you that it's something that never happens or basically can't happen. 

I also disagree that if someone struggles mentally with something, and that changes their trajectory a bit, it means they were always destined to struggle with that thing because of lower mental toughness. I don't think that's very realistic to how people work and how careers evolve. 

When you say that, are you talking about people in general or athletes?  I don’t think you can compare baseball players to other jobs.

It’s all mental. If they aren’t mentally strong, they stent making it.

[LookinUp]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Was he delayed?  Did that hurt his development?

It's my opinion that he was rushed through the minors. It wasn't just about the decision to promote him this year. It was about pushing him so quickly through AA first. 

That said, I think it was easily justifiable to handle it like the O's did. I'm not mad about it at all. I just think Holliday never got the benefit of being at a level long enough to work on the nuances of his game, certainly not at 2b, but also to see how others pitched to him after seeing him before.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

It's my opinion that he was rushed through the minors. It wasn't just about the decision to promote him this year. It was about pushing him so quickly through AA first. 

That said, I think it was easily justifiable to handle it like the O's did. I'm not mad about it at all. I just think Holliday never got the benefit of being at a level long enough to work on the nuances of his game, certainly not at 2b, but also to see how others pitched to him after seeing him before.

Like I said a few weeks ago, I was told that the Os FO views Holliday as the most advanced player in the org (at that age)..far beyond where Gunnar was.

That combined with his performance is why he was moved quickly.  
 

Development isn’t linear. Not everyone needs to be developed in the same manner.  Some guys are just too good for their level.

Edited April 23 by Sports Guy

[Spy Fox]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

When you say that, are you talking about people in general or athletes?  I don’t think you can compare baseball players to other jobs.

It’s all mental. If they aren’t mentally strong, they stent making it.

People in general, but I'm comfortable applying the idea to baseball players and other professional athletes.

Yes, to be an MLB player you have to be mentally strong and you have to overcome adversity. But I don't think it's as black and white as, you're mentally strong as a person or you're not. Your mental strength can be different at different points in time just like your other skills are. Mental strength might be one of the skills that is still developing in some players, and it might develop in different ways depending on what environment they're in, including what happens to them on the field. 

[Tony-OH]

35 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He wasn’t rushed because the org and everyone who saw him felt he was ready. He’s mature, he’s confident and has dominated the minors.

So, unless you want to ignore all of that, I don’t see any logical argument that he was rushed.

Well, besides his utter domination by major league pitching, I agree.

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Spy Fox said:

People in general, but I'm comfortable applying the idea to baseball players and other professional athletes.

Yes, to be an MLB player you have to be mentally strong and you have to overcome adversity. But I don't think it's as black and white as, you're mentally strong as a person or you're not. Your mental strength can be different at different points in time just like your other skills are. Mental strength might be one of the skills that is still developing in some players, and it might develop in different ways depending on what environment they're in, including what happens to them on the field. 

Pro Athletes never have problems with confidence or failure?  Then why do teams feel the need to hire sports psychologists?   Not directed at you but the brick wall you’re discussing this with.   Players are human.  They aren’t robots.   

[justD]

5 hours ago, deward said:

There's a piece on The Athletic today where they interviewed Holliday, Hyde, and Fuller about his struggles (subscription required)

https://theathletic.com/5437515/2024/04/23/jackson-holliday-orioles-mlb-career-bad-start

 

Interesting comparison to Bregman.  I recall seeing him in BP at OPACY one night and he had a tablet with him that he'd check after every BP turn.  We didn't have anything like that at the time and I was fascinated by it, but more relevant was the fact that he continued, after that initial struggle, to minutely monitor his swing every chance he got in an attempt to constantly improve.

[justD]

I agree with Will Clark, Chris Young, even Albert Pujols (but for different reasons than he stated). He needs to stay up. 

Every pitcher he's seen has said, "I'm not going to be the one you beat" and has pitched him like he was, well, Juan Soto for lack of a better comparison in this instance. So many pitches that have painted the corners inside, outside, up, down. He's really gotten a baptism by fire. 

So after 100+ plate appearances, reevaluate. I think he will have had something click in the next week and all of this hand-wringing will become history.

If he's still struggling and then sent down, will he miss seeing ML pitching? Perhaps. But it's been noted that the Os farm system tries to indoctrinate good pitch selection habits before they're brought up. If he didn't have enough time to get that,  it could be the one thing he'd gain that the ML just moves too fast for. 

[interloper]

It seems to me that you can boil about 70% of his struggles down to timing issues and 30% to whatever mental gymnastics he's going through, whether it's pressing, guessing at the plate, media/expectations getting in his head, etc. Cowser and Westburg recently remarked on a podcast how lonely it is to be struggling in the big leagues. That has a real impact, no matter the maturity level. You are on that struggle bus by yourself until you get off it. 

He's expanding the zone more than he should, but also swinging at some good pitches and just flat missing/late on them or making weak contact. If I'm the Orioles coaching staff, I'm going all in on mechanical adjustments and trying to get his timing on track. I'm sure they're doing that. 

But like someone else said in this thread, sometimes the ML level shines a light on an area that needs addressing that wasn't apparent in the minor leagues. The question is can he address it before Elias makes a move... I don't know. I'd say at this point it's not especially likely. Tonight is as good a chance as he's going to get with a struggling righty on the mound. If he can't show something tonight, the writing might be on the wall.

Edited April 23 by interloper

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, interloper said:

It seems to me that you can boil about 70% of his struggles down to timing issues and 30% to whatever mental gymnastics he's going through, whether it's pressing, guessing at the plate, media and expectations getting in his head. Cowser and Westburg recently remarked on a podcast how lonely it is to be struggling in the big leagues. That has a real impact, no matter the maturity level. You are on that struggle bus by yourself until you get off it. 

He's expanding the zone more than he should, but also swinging at some good pitches and just flat missing/late on them or making weak contact. If I'm the Orioles coaching staff, I'm going all in on mechanical adjustments and trying to get his timing on track. I'm sure they're doing that. 

But like someone else said in this thread, sometimes the ML level shines a light on an area that needs addressing that wasn't apparent in the minor leagues. The question is can he address it before Elias makes a move... I don't know. I'd say at this point it's not especially likely. Tonight is as good a chance as he's going to get with a struggling righty on the mound. If he can't show something tonight, the writing might be on the wall.

I don’t disagree with anything you said but there’s an easy answer.  As long as Elias and Hyde think he’s ok and stands a good chance of turning things around he stays, especially if the team continues to win.  If they feel he needs a reset or needs to work on things in a less pressurized environment he’ll go down.  They deserve the benefit of the doubt as far as what’s best for Holliday and the team.   We can all guess when and what they’ll do but I think 95% of us are good with whatever they decide.

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I don’t disagree with anything you said but there’s an easy answer.  As long as Elias and Hyde think he’s ok and stands a good chance of turning things around he stays, especially if the team continues to win.  If they feel he needs a reset or needs to work on things in a less pressurized environment he’ll go down.  They deserve the benefit of the doubt as far as what’s best for Holliday and the team.   We can all guess when and what they’ll do but I think 95% of us are good with whatever they decide.

Yep, and I'm interested to see what the leash is. I think where I have some questions is if he wades into "historically bad" waters, say 1-50, and how does Elias feel about protecting him from that? 

Really all the kid has to do is get a hit here or there, or hit some high-EV outs, and the conversation starts to change pretty quick. 

[Just Regular]

Pull%, his 64 is 4th of 374 MLB Bats at his 20 PA threshold.

Last year in the Minors, he was 38%, one of the lower numbers in the organization.

He spent the winter adding mass so he could look more like a full grown man.

Its probably fine to ping a single over the shortstop's head like Nori Aoki or Steven Kwan.