What evidence do we have that Angelos...

[DrungoHazewood]

Come on, we all called this last year. When things didn't work out it would be AM that wanted these players. Even though he already said that Buck was in charge.

I just don't get why people engage him in any conversation. LJ puts it best when he describes him as intellectually dishonest.

Right, it was all set up from the beginning. Buck gets credit for all successes (note the complete lack of blame on Buck for his 69-win team). MacPhail gets blame for the failures (including all of the guys Trea gave virtual standing ovations to Buck for acquiring). Buck even gets credit for the right ideas (Vlad was a great risk!!) when they bomb, while MacPhail gets little or no accolades for the things that actually went well.

[olehippi]

I love the idea of buying and selling. I have been preaching it for years.

Guys like Guthrie and Jones are not going to be worth extending for the deals they will want...So, you deal them and get back more talent and depth...Trading Jones now, at his highest value, is a good idea either way IMO.

But you don't have to go out there with a team of Robert Andinos.

You get back some guys in those trades that can be ML ready. You go out and look for another Hardy type guy, say Kendrys Morales for example and make a trade for Floyd or Nolasco and sign Darvish.

You get another bat like a Kubel and then you see what you have going forward.

By doing all of that, you don't have any terrible contracts..You have added a lot more depth and talent to the organization and you still put a team on the field that should be capable of a 500ish run and then be set up to then go out and spend big dollars in FA the following year.

Improve the defense and the pitching.

This way, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can still field a competitive team in 2012, while still building your system up.

I understand that using this "Tampa Bay strategy" is the way to go, and I think that MacPhail was trying to do this, and he made some darn good trades to bring in young talent. But things seemed to change when Showalter came aboard. Baltimore suddenly became the "Buck Show" and MacPhail seemed to fade into the background. And now, for better or worse, he's gone and the Oriole's are once again a rudderless ship. That's why I also asked "who" can turn the tide? If Buck has Angelos' ear - like everyone claims - and is actually going to be be running the whole show from the dugout - as many are claiming - why would anyone with any degree of integrity want to step into the GM job in Baltimore?

[Sports Guy]

I understand that using this "Tampa Bay strategy" is the way to go, and I think that MacPhail was trying to do this, and he made some darn good trades to bring in young talent. But things seemed to change when Showalter came aboard. Baltimore suddenly became the "Buck Show" and MacPhail seemed to fade into the background. And now, for better or worse, he's gone and the Oriole's are once again a rudderless ship. That's why I also asked "who" can turn the tide? If Buck has Angelos' ear - like everyone claims - and is actually going to be be running the whole show from the dugout - as many are claiming - why would anyone with any degree of integrity want to step into the GM job in Baltimore?

They will get some kind of a yes man who is willing to collect a big pay check.

If they bring in a guy like LaCava, the hope would be that he is allowed to do what he wants with the MiL system..which I don't think will happen.

The Orioles can be the Red Sox lite...They can't spend the same money payroll wise but they could spend 100-110 million on the ML payroll and spend omn amateur signings.

[Frobby]

How's that Tex contract working out?

The Yankees did win the WS in the first year of Tex's contract, right?

The jury is still out, but Tex's contract looks like a huge turkey at the moment. The fact that the Yankees won a World Series with Tex on their roster is irrelevant to that conclusion. Getting Tex certainly wouldn't have gotten the Orioles to the World series at any time in the last three years, and we'd be stuck with his albatross of a contract, which figures to get worse over time, for another five years.

[Tony-OH]

Angelos got impatient and then did nothing to improve things.

He hired Buck last year and you said Buck was going to be in charge last year.

So, that means you should think that it was Buck who wanted Gregg, DLee, etc...

Sounds like sound logic to me.

[TonySoprano]

The jury is still out, but Tex's contract looks like a huge turkey at the moment. The fact that the Yankees won a World Series with Tex on their roster is irrelevant to that conclusion. Getting Tex certainly wouldn't have gotten the Orioles to the World series at any time in the last three years, and we'd be stuck with his albatross of a contract, which figures to get worse over time, for another five years.

...and yet you recently voted here that you would want Tex to be an Oriole.

[Frobby]

...and yet you recently voted here that you would want Tex to be an Oriole.

My understanding of that poll was that it was asking, if other details could be worked out, would you be in favor of a Tex trade, or would his prior spurning of the Orioles make you not want him in any circumstances. That is why I voted "yes" in that poll. But I also stated in the other Tex thread that I'd want the Yankees to kick in about $30 mm before we could do a deal.

[Florida_Osfan]

The jury is still out, but Tex's contract looks like a huge turkey at the moment. The fact that the Yankees won a World Series with Tex on their roster is irrelevant to that conclusion. Getting Tex certainly wouldn't have gotten the Orioles to the World series at any time in the last three years, and we'd be stuck with his albatross of a contract, which figures to get worse over time, for another five years.

I agree with you. And in the context of it, I felt the same about the O's having no chance of winning with him. Nor am I sold that signing him secured the WS title for the Yanks. He helped but I'm not sure it sealed any deals.

That being said, you're right that the jury is still out on Tex and anchor of a contract.

[JTrea81]

The jury is still out, but Tex's contract looks like a huge turkey at the moment. The fact that the Yankees won a World Series with Tex on their roster is irrelevant to that conclusion. Getting Tex certainly wouldn't have gotten the Orioles to the World series at any time in the last three years, and we'd be stuck with his albatross of a contract, which figures to get worse over time, for another five years.

So far according to Fangraphs, Teixeira has been worth 55.3 million for his performance or $18.4 million per season. He's been paid $62.5 million or $20.8 million per season So he's underperformed by only $2.4 million per season. We've wasted more than $20 million in stopgap FA contracts year after year and you are talking about 2.4 million overpayment per season. Had the Orioles signed him for $23 million per season for 8/184, you'd be talking 4.6 million. And that would be the Orioles tax.

That's hardly an albatross for any team, especially the New York Yankees.

An albatross contract is Alex Rodriguez's second deal, or Adam Dunn's WS contract.

And you assume that if the Orioles signed Teixeria, that there would be no other effect and that the Orioles would have just stopped at Tex and not added more.

You can't just look at Tex in a vaccum. His impact would have been more than just his 4.2 fWAR, and we wouldn't have been having issues at 1B for the past 3 seasons. And we'd have Tex right now to build with going into this offseason instead having to sign a defensively inferior option in Fielder.

Tex's contract would have been worth it even if he wasn't living up to the overpayment IMO and to call it an albatross is just sour grapes that our GM didn't want to pay what it would take to get him.

[Sports Guy]

So far according to Fangraphs, Teixeira has been worth 55.3 million for his performance or $18.4 million per season. He's been paid $62.5 million or $20.8 million per season So he's underperformed by only $2.4 million per season. We've wasted more than $20 million in stopgap FA contracts year after year and you are talking about 2.4 million overpayment per season. Had the Orioles signed him for $23 million per season for 8/184, you'd be talking 4.6 million. And that would be the Orioles tax.

That's hardly an albatross for any team, especially the New York Yankees.

An albatross contract is Alex Rodriguez's second deal, or Adam Dunn's WS contract.

And you assume that if the Orioles signed Teixeria, that there would be no other effect and that the Orioles would have just stopped at Tex and not added more.

You can't just look at Tex in a vaccum. His impact would have been more than just his 4.2 fWAR, and we wouldn't have been having issues at 1B for the past 3 seasons. And we'd have Tex right now to build with going into this offseason instead having to sign a defensively inferior option in Fielder.

Tex's contract would have been worth it even if he wasn't living up to the overpayment IMO and to call it an albatross is just sour grapes that our GM didn't want to pay what it would take to get him.

I know you don't want to hear this but they don't HAVE to sign Fielder.

[xKHx]

So far according to Fangraphs, Teixeira has been worth 55.3 million for his performance or $18.4 million per season. He's been paid $62.5 million or $20.8 million per season So he's underperformed by only $2.4 million per season. We've wasted more than $20 million in stopgap FA contracts year after year and you are talking about 2.4 million overpayment per season. Had the Orioles signed him for $23 million per season for 8/184, you'd be talking 4.6 million. And that would be the Orioles tax.

That's hardly an albatross for any team, especially the New York Yankees.

An albatross contract is Alex Rodriguez's second deal, or Adam Dunn's WS contract.

And you assume that if the Orioles signed Teixeria, that there would be no other effect and that the Orioles would have just stopped at Tex and not added more.

You can't just look at Tex in a vaccum. His impact would have been more than just his 4.2 fWAR, and we wouldn't have been having issues at 1B for the past 3 seasons. And we'd have Tex right now to build with going into this offseason instead having to sign a defensively inferior option in Fielder.

Tex's contract would have been worth it even if he wasn't living up to the overpayment IMO and to call it an albatross is just sour grapes that our GM didn't want to pay what it would take to get him.

Good post Trea and I agree with this post.

[24fps]

So far according to Fangraphs, Teixeira has been worth 55.3 million for his performance or $18.4 million per season. He's been paid $62.5 million or $20.8 million per season So he's underperformed by only $2.4 million per season. We've wasted more than $20 million in stopgap FA contracts year after year and you are talking about 2.4 million overpayment per season. Had the Orioles signed him for $23 million per season for 8/184, you'd be talking 4.6 million. And that would be the Orioles tax.

That's hardly an albatross for any team, especially the New York Yankees.

An albatross contract is Alex Rodriguez's second deal, or Adam Dunn's WS contract.

And you assume that if the Orioles signed Teixeria, that there would be no other effect and that the Orioles would have just stopped at Tex and not added more.

You can't just look at Tex in a vaccum. His impact would have been more than just his 4.2 fWAR, and we wouldn't have been having issues at 1B for the past 3 seasons. And we'd have Tex right now to build with going into this offseason instead having to sign a defensively inferior option in Fielder.

Tex's contract would have been worth it even if he wasn't living up to the overpayment IMO and to call it an albatross is just sour grapes that our GM didn't want to pay what it would take to get him.

Yes, let's not look at it in a vacuum. His 4.2 fWAR at roughly $21 million would consume a quarter of the payroll. Throw in Nick and BRob and we're at +/- 50% annual payroll for three players, all of whom are underperforming to some degree. None of those three contracts are "worth it" for the Baltimore Orioles in their current situation. Nick and BRob by themselves are tolerable. Barely, but only in context.

[allstar1579]

Wait, I stopped reading 9 pages ago, someone catch me up. Is everything still at MacPhail's fault and now Buck is going to make Angelos spend $200m this offseason because in high school Buck beat up Chuck Norris?

[The Rick]

Wait, I stopped reading 9 pages ago, someone catch me up. Is everything still at MacPhail's fault and now Buck is going to make Angelos spend $200m this offseason because in high school Buck beat up Chuck Norris?

Not exactly, about 8 pages ago or so it was revealed that Buck also beat up Sylvester Stallone in college.

[JTrea81]

Yes, let's not look at it in a vacuum. His 4.2 fWAR at roughly $21 million would consume a quarter of the payroll. Throw in Nick and BRob and we're at +/- 50% annual payroll for three players, all of whom are underperforming to some degree. None of those three contracts are "worth it" for the Baltimore Orioles in their current situation. Nick and BRob by themselves are tolerable. Barely, but only in context.

How much money have we wasted for replacement value or worse? I'd guarantee it's more than Tex's salary.