What evidence do we have that Angelos...

[LookitsPuck]

The GM's job is to translate the owner's instructions into the on-field product. So then, with this understanding, ALL owners are "meddlers".

I'm not defending Angelos, but the definition of meddling is "to interest oneself in what is not one's concern : interfere without right or propriety" so by definition Angelos cannot be a "meddler".

Well, if we define an owner as a person that can have a say in the day to day activities, but shouldn't...then yes, he is a meddler.

[Sports Guy]

The issue of ownership interference is one that is seen in many clubs, though. I mean, from everything I hear, Theo Epstein for instance doesn't really have carte blanche in Boston. Henry and Lucchino have their say....the reality is that there are few owners who are happy to just hire people and then write the checks. These guys all have huge egos and many of them became sports owners because they wanted to be involved.

I don't think anyone would dispute that Angelos, especially since 1997, has been a poor owner who has made a series of bad decisions. But this does not mean that the Orioles are a lost cause until he sells the team, or that the people in place in the organization are all hemmed in by him and his stupidity. After all, the stories about Angelos pale in comparison to the meddling of Steinbrenner from the 1970s to the 1990s.

I don't think you understand just how bad things are with PA as the owner.

[JTrea81]

I don't think you understand just how bad things are with PA as the owner.

Well your theory will get tested this offseason. MacPhail is no longer in charge so we'll get to see how committed to win Angelos really is.

[The Rick]

Well your theory will get tested this offseason. MacPhail is no longer in charge so we'll get to see how committed to win Angelos really is.

Right, because the last 14 years didn't prove anything - That was just pretend. This off season is the only real test.

What a joke, this whole train of thought is by far the most idiotic thing I've ever witnessed on OH. And I've never been one to jump all over your posts, so this is saying something.

[JTrea81]

Right, because the last 14 years didn't prove anything - That was just pretend. This off season is the only real test.

What a joke, this whole train of thought is by far the most idiotic thing I've ever witnessed on OH. And I've never been one to jump all over your posts, so this is saying something.

The first 10 years, that's all on Angelos, no doubt. For the past four, his role has been unclear, with rumors and hearsay and no real concrete facts. All we know is that he brought in MacPhail, and AM failed to put a winner on the field.

So now with MacPhail gone, and Buck eager to spend to put a winner on the field, we'll see exactly how Angelos wants to proceed.

[Moose Milligan]

The first 10 years, that's all on Angelos, no doubt. For the past four, his role has been unclear, with rumors and hearsay and no real concrete facts. All we know is that he brought in MacPhail, and AM failed to put a winner on the field.

So now with MacPhail gone, and Buck eager to spend to put a winner on the field, we'll see exactly how Angelos wants to proceed.

Arguing with you is pointless... but why do you think Angelos will all of a sudden see the light?

[JTrea81]

Arguing with you is pointless... but why do you think Angelos will all of a sudden see the light?

Father Time and Buck Showalter.

[Moose Milligan]

Father Time and Buck Showalter.

But you have no real concrete facts as you pointed out above. So...there's that.

[JTrea81]

But you have no real concrete facts as you pointed out above. So...there's that.

That is correct, however I am putting faith in Buck and Angelos to do the right thing this offseason...

[24fps]

Arguing with you is pointless... but why do you think Angelos will all of a sudden see the light?

I think the question at hand is whether PA has already changed his notorious meddling ways, and if this thread is any indication, the answer has to be yes.

When faced with the question of how he has meddled since AM was brought on board, the collective knowledge of some very well informed fans here on the OH have come up with the following: Dave Stockstill has PA as a patron (certainly possible although not proven), PA preferred Buck Showalter to Eric Wedge over AM's rumored objection (also possible but hardly a crime) and PA provided several millions in additional budget to sign Vladimir Guerrero. That's pretty much it unless you go back to pre-AM. It seems to me that an owner who is willing to increase the budget for a difference-making player shouldn't be excessively criticized for his gesture. That Vlad didn't make a difference is regrettable but hardly grounds for going after PA for not being able to predict the future any better than almost everybody else including a lot of us here.

Has Peter Angelos suddenly turned from King Peter to Saint Peter? Of course not, but to conclude on the basis of the evidence presented that PA is primarily responsible for the failure of the last four years is no more warranted than JTrea's ridiculous assertion that "Buck (is) eager to spend to put a winner on the field".

[glorydays]

I think the question at hand is whether PA has already changed his notorious meddling ways, and if this thread is any indication, the answer has to be yes.

When faced with the question of how he has meddled since AM was brought on board, the collective knowledge of some very well informed fans here on the OH have come up with the following: Dave Stockstill has PA as a patron (certainly possible although not proven), PA preferred Buck Showalter to Eric Wedge over AM's rumored objection (also possible but hardly a crime) and PA provided several millions in additional budget to sign Vladimir Guerrero. That's pretty much it unless you go back to pre-AM. It seems to me that an owner who is willing to increase the budget for a difference-making player shouldn't be excessively criticized for his gesture. That Vlad didn't make a difference is regrettable but hardly grounds for going after PA for not being able to predict the future any better than almost everybody else including a lot of us here.

Has Peter Angelos suddenly turned from King Peter to Saint Peter? Of course not, but to conclude on the basis of the evidence presented that PA is primarily responsible for the failure of the last four years is no more warranted than JTrea's ridiculous assertion that "Buck (is) eager to spend to put a winner on the field".

So - you don't think that hiring a GM and not allowing him to have his pick of the on the field manager and the Director of Player Development are not big problems? That doesn't make much sense.

It's like getting the job as CEO of a failing car manufacturer and told you can't replace the guy who is in charge of designing the cars and the other guy who is in charge of the factory producing the cars even if you believe they are part of the problem.

Those are 2 very big things IMO.

[DrungoHazewood]

Well your theory will get tested this offseason. MacPhail is no longer in charge so we'll get to see how committed to win Angelos really is.

Yep, if the O's don't replace, augment, gut, etc almost the entire scouting and development system we'll know it was Angelos holding us back.

We've always had an inkling that Angelos would throw some money at major league payroll if pushed, so patching stuff over with a free agent or two could be expected with a different GM.

[DrungoHazewood]

That is correct, however I am putting faith in Buck and Angelos to do the right thing this offseason...

Just like Greece did the right thing by their people over the last decade or three. Personally, I'd refrain from making moral judgments based on whether the O's are willing to make short-term, high-risk, low probability of success moves. It's easy to see people calling your strategy "wrong".

[Tony-OH]

Let's just say I completely disagree. He's the man in charge. He hires the GM whose philosophy most matches his own. He hires the folks who run the various parts of the organization. He sets the tone. He sets the budget.

And it's all failed. For a long time. All of it.

Actually, from what I heard, he never really sets the budget and that's been a big part of the problem. Maybe he does now with MacPhail, but the prior GMs never had a budget to work with. They could never plan an off season or have an organizational plan because they had to constantly go up and get deals approved by Angelos. Sometimes it would take a week or two to get a response and meanwhile a deal would fall through or it would be denied and they would be back to square one. This is the way things work through out the entire organization. I think for the most part Angelos did step back and allow MacPhail to trade who he wanted which is why he's probably been more effective than his predecessors.

At the end of the day though, a GM who has never had a 70-win season choose to walk away from the Orioles vice being fired. Has that ever happened in any sport? How can the guy who failed for four years be wanted back only to say no thinks? How screwed up do things have to be for that to happen?

[DrungoHazewood]

Actually, from what I heard, he never really sets the budget and that's been a big part of the problem. Maybe he does now with MacPhail, but the prior GMs never had a budget to work with. They could never plan an off season or have an organizational plan because they had to constantly go up and get deals approved by Angelos. Sometimes it would take a week or two to get a response and meanwhile a deal would fall through or it would be denied and they would be back to square one. This is the way things work through out the entire organization. I think for the most part Angelos did step back and allow MacPhail to trade who he wanted which is why he's probably been more effective than his predecessors.

Yea, I remember hearing that before. It's kind of the same thing, I guess. Just much worse. He's controlling the money, but micromanaging the budget, and micromanaging really, really deliberately.

At the end of the day though, a GM who has never had a 70-win season choose to walk away from the Orioles vice being fired. Has that ever happened in any sport? How can the guy who failed for four years be wanted back only to say no thinks? How screwed up do things have to be for that to happen?

Right. How crazy is the situation when the owner is getting dumped by the GM after years of failure? If anybody needs evidence that Angelos is the problem, look no farther. This is as close as MacPhail will ever get to explicitly saying "Pete, I've had enough of you and your organization."