Sun:Grimsley names 3 O's in banned drug case

[oriole_way]

If Grimsley didn't implicate Tejada, Roberts, Gibbons, Clemens and Pettite, unlike what Novitzky claims in his affidavit, then Grimsley could sue. But he won't. Why? Probably because it's accurate. Anyway, why would Novitsky risk his career by making false claims? It seems highly unlikely.

To those who think that Grimsley would make false accusations regarding these players. This also seems unlikely. He was probably "encouraged" to cooperate and to give up names in order to help himself, but why would he outright lie? Do we really think that he doesn't actually know of anyone who took steroids, so he had to resort to naming 5 innocent guys.

Are these guys guilty? Who knows for sure. But I would say that it's at least plausible. To argue otherwise, by rigidly clinging to mantras such as "innocent until proven guilty", "innocent until they fail a urine test", "Grimsley is an outright liar who is simply just trying to save himself", "Novitsky is an outright liar who is simply on a witchhunt" etc, is simply naive and/or ignorant.

There is a reason that many players accused of taking steroids hide behind their lawyers, or others claim not to speak English well (Sosa) or refrain from talking about the past (Mcguire) etc. That reason is that they don't want to implicate themselves (you know, say something that can be used against you later). Unless, of course, you're Raffy. Oops, wait a minute.

[SilentJames]

Over 200 people have been murdered in Baltimore this year.

If someone were to implicate me in an affidavit, even without any malice, if there is no other evidence I don't go to jail.

Is it "plausable" yes, ANYTHING is plausable. But until these guys give me a reason to not believe them, I will believe them.

[FellsPointOsFan]

Orioles come out swinging against "smears":

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.steroids02oct02,0,223351.story?coll=bal-sports-baseball

[Mark Carver]

If Grimsley didn't implicate Tejada, Roberts, Gibbons, Clemens and Pettite, unlike what Novitzky claims in his affidavit, then Grimsley could sue. But he won't. Why? Probably because it's accurate. Anyway, why would Novitsky risk his career by making false claims? It seems highly unlikely.

Well I could think of plenty reasons why Grimsley has kept quite to date. To start with, he's still in legal trouble for acquiring banned substance. And on advice from an attorney, "keep your mouth shut". Because what you say in public can be used against you in a court of law.

The Special Prosecutor in the CIA outing of Valerie Plame, spent millions of dollars, went before a judge to get search warrants to find out who outed her. He sent a newspaper reporter to jail because she wouldn't reveal her sources. When in fact he knew who had outed her right away from the very beginning of his investigation.

Why do they do what they do. Well Novitsky certainly has an adgenda, and that's to get Barry Bonds. He tried to get Grimsley to wear a wire to record conversations with Bonds. Grimsley refused, maybe by putting words in Grimsley's mouth, is a form of pressure for him to co-opperate.

But as of right know, it will take more than an affidavit to convince me all 5 that were named in it, is the truth.

[Tx Oriole]

I don't know why any of you would believe that loser Grimsley. Why not believe in your team players? Tejada, Roberts, Gibby. Just because Grimsley names these players it is far from being Gospel. Why not let it play out? Why not take up for the three O's players as being innocent until there is proof to the contrary? What has happened to innocent until they are proven guilty? Some of you guys go all to pieces because of Grimsley. Thinking it must be true. That is very sad indeed. As for me I will believe these players. There is no proof.

[Mark Carver]

I don't know why any of you would believe that loser Grimsley. Why not believe in your team players? Tejada, Roberts, Gibby. Just because Grimsley names these players it is far from being Gospel. Why not let it play out? Why not take up for the three O's players as being innocent until there is proof to the contrary? What has happened to innocent until they are proven guilty? Some of you guys go all to pieces because of Grimsley. Thinking it must be true. That is very sad indeed. As for me I will believe these players. There is no proof.

The affidavit doesn't have quotes from Grimsley. It is the words of IRS Special Agent Novitsky, who says that Grimsley says this, and Grimsley says that... so if you want to believe in your teams players, maybe it could be that Grimsley didn't actually name names. So before you start to throw Grimsley under the bus, maybe you should let it play out...

... afterall, from the Washington Post's LA Times verison of the article

Since June, he has complained to friends that federal agents attributed statements and disclosures to him that he didn't make.

[OrioleMagic]

Public opinion has always been a nice way of describing a lynch mob, but I was referring to what used to be our justice system. If you've been keeping up with currrent events you will know that you can be arrested and imprisoned indefinitely with out recourse to due process. As to steroids testing: there is no fool proof system they could implement that would be anything other than cosmetic.

Those at Gitmo are the only ones I have heard of. I can't fathom your statement applying to the baseball steroids investigation.

[wildcard]

As far as these three guys standing in the community, stature and future with the club, I think they have to be innocent until proven guilty.

How would any of us like to be found guilty in the court of public opinion without any proof. That is just plain unfair.

So far it appears to be nothing but the opinion of a guy being hounded by the FBI. Someone trying to save his own butt when he was caught in the act.

There is going to have to be more to it then that to convince me these guys should be condemned.

[66-70-83-??]

As far as these three guys standing in the community, stature and future with the club, I think they have to be innocent until proven guilty.

How would any of us like to be found guilty in the court of public opinion without any proof. That is just plain unfair.

So far it appears to be nothing but the opinion of a guy being hounded by the FBI. Someone trying to save his own butt when he was caught in the act.

There is going to have to be more to it then that to convince me these guys should be condemned.

Of course it isn't fair. Who said life was fair ?

But, on the other hand- it is guilt by association. You are who you associate with. At the end of the day, whose fault is that ? Who could have prevented themselves from being thrown in the same category as the cheaters ? The clean players could have. But, they chose to turn the other cheek.

The one group who will have the most regrets when this chapter is finally written into the history books will be the HOF'ers of generations past.

They are becoming increasingly more vocal about it (and they ain't happy) as time goes on...... (ie Brooks, Frank, Aaron, Palmer, Morgan, Kaline, Killebrew, Berra, etc...)

[Mark Carver]

Of course it isn't fair. Who said life was fair ?

But, on the other hand- it is guilt by association. You are who you associate with. At the end of the day, whose fault is that ? Who could have prevented themselves from being thrown in the same category as the cheaters ? The clean players could have. But, they chose to turn the other cheek.

So, what your saying, is that if player x says player y, used steroids. Than it must be so? Gee... sorry player y, your guilty by association.

The one group who will have the most regrets when this chapter is finally written into the history books will be the HOF'ers of generations past.

They are becoming increasingly more vocal about it (and they ain't happy) as time goes on...... (ie Brooks, Frank, Aaron, Palmer, Morgan, Kaline, Killebrew, Berra, etc...)

As has been pointed out many times on here, past generations had their steroids. They were the amphetamines that were dispended like candy. When Frank Robinson was asked about them... see below.

From Amphetamines and baseball

At the mention of greenies, Washington Nationals Manager Frank Robinson, a Hall of Fame player who is among the most astute observers of the game, tightened his lips in a half-smile and drew his thumb and forefinger together across them as if to keep his lips zipped.

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"There’s a lot of anecdotal stuff that’s gone on," Selig said. "I was a young kid who walked into the Milwaukee Braves clubhouse and I heard about it. That was 1958, so that’s 47 years ago. You can talk to people that go four, five and six decades back."

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None of the current or former players interviewed by the AP seemed to know what was in greenies, which were usually Benzedrine when they were introduced to baseball and football by players returning from the military after using the pills in World War II.

[66-70-83-??]

So, what your saying, is that if player x says player y, used steroids. Than it must be so? Gee... sorry player y, your guilty by association.

Not in a court of law.

If you repeatedly hang out in a crackhouse, even though you don't smoke or sell it- do you think the police will believe you when they raid the place and sweep you up with the rest of the crackheads ?

Of course not. Is it fair ? No. Did you have plenty of chances to do something to avoid being put in your predicament ? YES. You could have stopped going back day after day. You could have found non-crackhead friends to hang with.

MLB players had many opportunities to do something about "it" long before it got to this point. THat is the point I am trying to make. Much of the blame lays with them (as a group) for the predicament they find themselves in today.

You can't put greenies (speed) in the same class as anabolic steroids or hgh.

[Mark Carver]

Not in a court of law.

If you repeatedly hang out in a crackhouse, even though you don't smoke or sell it- do you think the police will believe you when they raid the place and sweep you up with the rest of the crackheads ?

Of course not. Is it fair ? No. Did you have plenty of chances to do something to avoid being put in your predicament ? YES. You could have stopped going back day after day. You could have found non-crackhead friends to hang with.

MLB players had many opportunities to do something about "it" long before it got to this point. THat is the point I am trying to make. Much of the blame lays with them (as a group) for the predicament they find themselves in today.

So let me try and figure out what your saying... all players playing today are guilty, even the ones that don't use steroids, HGH or amphetamines.

You can't put greenies (speed) in the same class as anabolic steroids or hgh.

Why can't I put them in the same class? They are taken to enhance a players ability to play the game, just like steroids. From the article I pointed to.

"There is no fatigue in baseball, per se," Yesalis said. "The old saying is, ‘It’s five minutes of action packed into three hours.’ Why would they use them? But ... it all revolves around the fact that it’s a very long season with very long road trips and recovering from nights out on the town. It’s used for getting over hangovers, the doldrums, the boredom of a 162-game season."

BTW, from the same article -

They are a schedule II controlled substances, the same classification as cocaine, amphetamines are illegal to sell without a doctor’s prescription for a specific medical condition.

So when Frank Robinson refuses to talk about the olden days when players were taking them like candy, that's ok.

[skipshot26]

You can't put greenies (speed) in the same class as anabolic steroids or hgh.

Why not? They are performance enhancing drugs. They are illegal is not prescribed by a licensed provider. If you distrbute them unlawfully you are breaking the law. Just like anabolic steroids. I don't see a difference.

[srock]

Those at Gitmo are the only ones I have heard of. I can't fathom your statement applying to the baseball steroids investigation.

Being held indefinitely appears to only hold true if your not a US citizen, even then, it has been done so infrequently and so secretly, that is wouldn't make sense here. Although, Tejeda is not a citizen...

I wonder what is worse for players health wise: HGH (players current vice) or rampant alcoholism (Mantle and friends).

Obviously, the HGH is more beneficial for playing sports.

I want to agree with SportsGuy and say I don't care who used but I just read all 24 pages of this thread instead of doing work this morning so clearly, I care. They really should join up with the Anti doping group that oversees the Olympics and just force everyone to take blood tests, that includes the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL. It's not like the players unions would strike indefinitely since the public would prefer a league a scabs over a league of cheating 'roid heads.

[66-70-83-??]

So let me try and figure out what your saying... all players playing today are guilty, even the ones that don't use steroids, HGH or amphetamines.

No. Of course they all aren't guilty on an individual basis. But, they collectively have lost the benefit of the doubt with me. I won't condemn them all, but I won't feel any sympathy either.

I am sorry. I am cynical about mlb players today.

I understand those who continue to give everyone of these guys the benefit of the doubt and I haven't passed any judgement on them. I have simply offered my opinion. I know I am in the minority on this issue.

Everyone claimed Caminiti was a crackpot and didn't know what he was talking about. Ditto with Canseco- he was only trying to sell books. Raffy- no way would he ever do roids. And now of course- Grimsley is a LIAR !

A survey taken early in 2005:

In a Feb. 17-March 9 survey of 568 players, 79% said they believed steroids played some role in record-breaking performances by high-profile players. And 27% said they believed the illegal performance-enhancing drugs were a "major contributor" to recent statistical achievements

source:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-03-15-steroids-mlb-cover_x.htm

Yet, when called to testify, not one of the players had ever known ANYONE, or seen ANYONE who ever did this stuff. Raffy even got indignant about it- how DARE you.... None of them know ANYTHING. Even when they are caught- they plead total non-belief and ignorance.

Never mind all the Balco stuff, the physical evidence of the players bodies, and the "coincidental" statistical bumps.

Am I the only one tired of all these guys getting caught and claiming they had "no idea" what they were taking. They took it "accidentily". "I thought it was flaxseed oil". Blah, Blah, Blah.

If I am caught red-handed doing whatever- I am going to admit it and take my punishment like a man.

Greenies were still being used alot by todays players until this year. Remember the "leaded" and "unleaded" coffee pots. We can agree to disagree on "greenies". I used speed a few times for football when I was younger. All they did to me was hype me up in the way several cups of strong coffee would. Students, pilots (USAF used to issue greenies) are some who have been know to take this.

MLB, and other sports for that matter, need to decide how serious they are about cleaning up the sport. Do they just want the appearance that they are clean ? Or do they all band together and put some resources ($$) into combating the problem and coming up with standardized testing and punishment procedures ?