Sun:Grimsley names 3 O's in banned drug case

[66-70-83-??]

Why not? They are performance enhancing drugs. They are illegal is not prescribed by a licensed provider. If you distrbute them unlawfully you are breaking the law. Just like anabolic steroids. I don't see a difference.

Ok. Fine. Go ahead.

The Greenies have been available to todays players as well.

So, the Greenies argument is a wash when comparing the 1950's-1970's players with the steroid generation.

I have never taken anabolic steroids but I know a few who have. They tell me their is no comparison.

[DrungoHazewood]

They really should join up with the Anti doping group that oversees the Olympics and just force everyone to take blood tests, that includes the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL. It's not like the players unions would strike indefinitely since the public would prefer a league a scabs over a league of cheating 'roid heads.

And they still wouldn't have a reliable test for HGH and who knows how many other designer PEDs.

[Witchy_Chick]

Why not? They are performance enhancing drugs. They are illegal is not prescribed by a licensed provider. If you distrbute them unlawfully you are breaking the law. Just like anabolic steroids. I don't see a difference.

And B-12. Keep in mind Tejada distributed B-12 to Palmeiro, Player A, and Player B (according to the leaked Palmeiro investigation information).

Between the B-12 use, the Palmeiro steroid pop, and now the Grimsley allegations -- I truly wonder (and worry) about substance usage within the Orioles clubhouse.

Witchy

[Moose Milligan]

No. Of course they all aren't guilty on an individual basis. But, they collectively have lost the benefit of the doubt with me. I won't condemn them all, but I won't feel any sympathy either.

I am sorry. I am cynical about mlb players today.

I understand those who continue to give everyone of these guys the benefit of the doubt and I haven't passed any judgement on them. I have simply offered my opinion. I know I am in the minority on this issue.

Everyone claimed Caminiti was a crackpot and didn't know what he was talking about. Ditto with Canseco- he was only trying to sell books. Raffy- no way would he ever do roids. And now of course- Grimsley is a LIAR !

A survey taken early in 2005:

source:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-03-15-steroids-mlb-cover_x.htm

Yet, when called to testify, not one of the players had ever known ANYONE, or seen ANYONE who ever did this stuff. Raffy even got indignant about it- how DARE you.... None of them know ANYTHING. Even when they are caught- they plead total non-belief and ignorance.

Never mind all the Balco stuff, the physical evidence of the players bodies, and the "coincidental" statistical bumps.

Am I the only one tired of all these guys getting caught and claiming they had "no idea" what they were taking. They took it "accidentily". "I thought it was flaxseed oil". Blah, Blah, Blah.

If I am caught red-handed doing whatever- I am going to admit it and take my punishment like a man.

Greenies were still being used alot by todays players until this year. Remember the "leaded" and "unleaded" coffee pots. We can agree to disagree on "greenies". I used speed a few times for football when I was younger. All they did to me was hype me up in the way several cups of strong coffee would. Students, pilots (USAF used to issue greenies) are some who have been know to take this.

MLB, and other sports for that matter, need to decide how serious they are about cleaning up the sport. Do they just want the appearance that they are clean ? Or do they all band together and put some resources ($$) into combating the problem and coming up with standardized testing and punishment procedures ?

What a whopper of a post. I'm with you. I'd give more rep but I gotta spread it around first.

[srock]

And they still wouldn't have a reliable test for HGH and who knows how many other designer PEDs.

The IOC disagrees.

They could be wrong, of course. Joining this type of organization at least helps pool the resources in order to put up the strongest anti doping fight possible. It will never be %100 but it doesn't have to be. MLB on its own is pretty weak versus the entire PED industry (black market?) but if all the leagues join forces a dent can be made.

EDIT:

The article also describes the storing of blood samples to be tested in the future when reliable tests are invented. Having all your blood samples stored and tested down the road should make athletes think hard about the newest 'undetectable' PED.

[nadecir]

There will be a never ending battle between those who design and conduct the tests for PEDs and those who want to cheat. Those who want to cheat will always search for new ways to mask their test results for PEDs, and they will search for the latest undetectable PEDs. Let's face the facts that some major league baseball players are cheating and will always try to cheat.

This does not mean that we should not make attempts to eliminate cheating. Make the penalties for getting caught severe like they do in other international sports. Let's talk two year bans for the first offense, and lifetime bans for the second, like they do in track and field. And I agree that cooperating with international agencies to share latest methods of testing is a good idea.

Let's hope at some point in time there is enough pressure but on the player's association to accept better testing and harsher penalties. That pressure should be coming from players who are clean, and everyone else inside and outside of baseball.

[olehippi]

After wading through the hundreds of posts in this thread for the last 2 days, I have to assume that many of the posters didn't bother to read a copy of the affidavit posted early on by Oriole119.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...grimsley1.html

(The pertinent pages are 12-15)

But those who did read it have repeatedly pointed out it is based upon a conversation IRS agent, Jeff Norvitsky, had with Grimsley after his house was raided. As it reads, on the surface it appears that Grimsley willingly game up names. My questions would be: (1) was the interview recorded? and (2) were there other agents present to confirm Novitsky's account? It seems that would be standard procedure. If not, it seems there would be a legal defense of heresay in a court of law, despite the fact the affadavit was filed by an IRS agent.

We can conjecture all we want, but the fact is, none of us knows the truth. But on the surface, I think this has all the earmarks of a witch hunt, as some other OH'ers have suggested.

I feel bad for Tejada, Roberts, and Gibbons because whether or not they are guilty of using steroids, its likely their lives are soon going to be turned upside down by this investigation. But the really sad part is, their reputations will be tarnished forever even if nothing more happens.

[SilentJames]

Honestly, I don;t think this is going to be a big deal.

The names have been known by members of the press for the entire summer, and they only now got enough confirmation to run with them.

That tells me this: 1) The information in the affidavit is flimsy at best. If these were rock-hard names and info, we would have heard about this a long time ago. In fact I am shocked that there wasn't ONE media outlet out there willing to go with it on what little confirmation they had. Anyone who has ever gone to the Drudge Report (and I like the report) can attest to that.

2) There doesn't seem to be any real pressure on these guys. Perhaps this is because of Roger Clemens and the MLB wants to avoid another HOF'er steroids controversy (which is VERY probable) or that there just isn't enough info other than Grimsely's name dropping. I watched sportscenter last night, I've seen the women's golf tournaments get more attention. You would think Roger Clemens, baseball legend and easy HOFer. One of the best pitchers of a generation gets accused of "performance enhancing" it goes by relatively quietly.

The media doesn't seem to be going nuts over this outside of Baltimore and Houston. It appears that the media is ready to move on from this until there is some sort of real investigation into these claims. Which there hasn't been yet.

I really think that this is going to go away without a lot of noise.

[nadecir]

Honestly, I don;t think this is going to be a big deal.

The names have been known by members of the press for the entire summer, and they only now got enough confirmation to run with them.

That tells me this: 1) The information in the affidavit is flimsy at best. If these were rock-hard names and info, we would have heard about this a long time ago. In fact I am shocked that there wasn't ONE media outlet out there willing to go with it on what little confirmation they had. Anyone who has ever gone to the Drudge Report (and I like the report) can attest to that.

You shouldn't be shocked about this. Reporters are going to jail for not revealing sources in the Bonds' case. This has put a real damper on investigative reporting on the steriod issue.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=2477224&page=1

[olehippi]

Honestly, I don;t think this is going to be a big deal.

The names have been known by members of the press for the entire summer, and they only now got enough confirmation to run with them.

That tells me this: 1) The information in the affidavit is flimsy at best. If these were rock-hard names and info, we would have heard about this a long time ago. In fact I am shocked that there wasn't ONE media outlet out there willing to go with it on what little confirmation they had. Anyone who has ever gone to the Drudge Report (and I like the report) can attest to that.

2) There doesn't seem to be any real pressure on these guys. Perhaps this is because of Roger Clemens and the MLB wants to avoid another HOF'er steroids controversy (which is VERY probable) or that there just isn't enough info other than Grimsely's name dropping. I watched sportscenter last night, I've seen the women's golf tournaments get more attention. You would think Roger Clemens, baseball legend and easy HOFer. One of the best pitchers of a generation gets accused of "performance enhancing" it goes by relatively quietly.

The media doesn't seem to be going nuts over this outside of Baltimore and Houston. It appears that the media is ready to move on from this until there is some sort of real investigation into these claims. Which there hasn't been yet.

I really think that this is going to go away without a lot of noise.

SJ....I truly hope you are right, but I think this whole thing is likely to become intertwined with the ongoing Congressional investigation. I'm just not getting good vibes about it.

[srock]

I don't suspect that there will be any fallout for our three players. The only possible problem is if these guys are really on the stuff and feel enough pressure to stop using. That's just looking at it from a cold baseball peformance perspective and not a moral one. If their performance is partly due to PED then we should be worried if they stop using. I'm not sure what to believe but I did go back and reread the affadavit since OldHippi made a good point about that. I'm sure the IRS guy is ambitious but I'm not sure how much of a witchhunt it is. It seems farfetched to think that he made up his conversations with Grimsley.

I don't find it farfetched that the information we are getting is wildly misinterpreted from what actual took place with Grimsley and the IRS guy, or that it could have been misinformation from a scared and angry Grimsley.

[SilentJames]

You shouldn't be shocked about this. Reporters are going to jail for not revealing sources in the Bonds' case. This has put a real damper on investigative reporting on the steriod issue.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=2477224&page=1

Which we should be VERY worried about. Sorry but I am a believer in shield laws.

[OrioleMagic]

After wading through the hundreds of posts in this thread for the last 2 days, I have to assume that many of the posters didn't bother to read a copy of the affidavit posted early on by Oriole119.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...grimsley1.html

(The pertinent pages are 12-15)

But those who did read it have repeatedly pointed out it is based upon a conversation IRS agent, Jeff Norvitsky, had with Grimsley after his house was raided. As it reads, on the surface it appears that Grimsley willingly game up names. My questions would be: (1) was the interview recorded? and (2) were there other agents present to confirm Novitsky's account? It seems that would be standard procedure. If not, it seems there would be a legal defense of heresay in a court of law, despite the fact the affadavit was filed by an IRS agent.

We can conjecture all we want, but the fact is, none of us knows the truth. But on the surface, I think this has all the earmarks of a witch hunt, as some other OH'ers have suggested.

I feel bad for Tejada, Roberts, and Gibbons because whether or not they are guilty of using steroids, its likely their lives are soon going to be turned upside down by this investigation. But the really sad part is, their reputations will be tarnished forever even if nothing more happens.

The hearsay rule applies to witnesses... An Agent cannot testify in court to what another witness saw (except in certain exceptions), Agents and Police Officers testify everyday to what the defendant/suspect told them. It is not hearsay if the Defendant said it or did it.

AND, in an affidavit of probable cause, hearsay is allowed. Hearsay is only NOT allowed in a trial/suppression hearing.

Some posters are sure hanging on to the belief that MLB players are all credible persons.

[El Gordo]

I don't find it farfetched that the information we are getting is wildly misinterpreted from what actual took place with Grimsley and the IRS guy, or that it could have been misinformation from a scared and angry Grimsley.

Mr.N. Help me out here and we'll help you out. You played on the O's right? must be some big juicers on that team huh? that Tejada guy he gave Palmeiro the spiked B12 didn't he? Never gets injured, plays every game that's an indication of steroid use right? RIGHT!!!!!?

Mr.G. Uh, yeah, I guess so.

Mr.N. And that Roberts kid, Recovered pretty quick from that arm injury, didn't he?

MrG. Yeah.

Mr.N. HgH would do that for you wouldn't it?

Mr. G. Yes it would.

How about that Gibbons guy? Arms like Popeye, acne all over his back. You see that kind of thing with steroids users don't you?DON'T YOU!!!!???

Mr.G Yes, yes, you do.

Mr.N. Well thank you for your help Mr. G. we'll be in touch.

[El Gordo]

The hearsay rule applies to witnesses... An Agent cannot testify in court to what another witness saw (except in certain exceptions), Agents and Police Officers testify everyday to what the defendant/suspect told them. It is not hearsay if the Defendant said it or did it.

AND, in an affidavit of probable cause, hearsay is allowed. Hearsay is only NOT allowed in a trial/suppression hearing.

Some posters are sure hanging on to the belief that MLB players are all credible persons.

As of course all law enforcement officers are.