Sun:Grimsley names 3 O's in banned drug case

[olehippi]

The hearsay rule applies to witnesses... An Agent cannot testify in court to what another witness saw (except in certain exceptions), Agents and Police Officers testify everyday to what the defendant/suspect told them. It is not hearsay if the Defendant said it or did it.

AND, in an affidavit of probable cause, hearsay is allowed. Hearsay is only NOT allowed in a trial/suppression hearing.

Some posters are sure hanging on to the belief that MLB players are all credible persons.

First, thanks for the clarification on heresay....obviously I'm not an attorney.

As for your credibility statement....it's not a matter of everyone believing all players are credible. We know better. The point is....what if Tejada, Roberts and Gibbons are credible, ie, innocent of the accused steroid use? The accusation has been made, and the damage is done. How would you feel if you were accused of something, your credibility questioned, and you knew you had done nothing wrong?

[nadecir]

But those who did read it have repeatedly pointed out it is based upon a conversation IRS agent, Jeff Norvitsky, had with Grimsley after his house was raided. As it reads, on the surface it appears that Grimsley willingly game up names. My questions would be: (1) was the interview recorded? and (2) were there other agents present to confirm Novitsky's account? It seems that would be standard procedure. I

If you read the affadavit, there were three other federal agents present when Novitsky conducted his interview with Grimsley. These four agents were from different federal agencies, namely the FBI, FDA and IRS. Novitsky had been with the IRS thirteen years before being involved with this case. If Novitsky in any way is misrepresenting Grimsley's statements, then he is risking his entire career and possibly imprisonment. He's got three other federal agents who heard the same story and Grimsley's defense attorney will certainly question each of these four agents.

Grimsley was free to leave at any time during the interview, and the agents actually corroborated a portion of his statements by having him call his supplier while they were there. So far, nothing that Grimsley said in his interview has been proven false. Don't make the federal agents the scapegoat in this affair, they were just doing their job.

[OrioleMagic]

As of course all law enforcement officers are.

No, they are not, but LE personnel have a system that holds them accountable for just one lie under oath. MLB players do not.

Granted, the IRS Agent COULD be misrepresenting the interview, but a realistic viewpoint demands the concession that it is much more likely that Grimsley is lying to protect his image amongst his MLB peers.

[OrioleMagic]

First, thanks for the clarification on heresay....obviously I'm not an attorney.

As for your credibility statement....it's not a matter of everyone believing all players are credible. We know better. The point is....what if Tejada, Roberts and Gibbons are credible, ie, innocent of the accused steroid use? The accusation has been made, and the damage is done. How would you feel if you were accused of something, your credibility questioned, and you knew you had done nothing wrong?

We don't know who the press's source is, but that is the person who "accused" Tejada, Roberts, and Gibbons.

I must concede that there are many politically motivated people who have access to these documents both in Law Enforcement and Prosecutors.

[olehippi]

If you read the affadavit, there were three other federal agents present when Novitsky conducted his interview with Grimsley. These four agents were from different federal agencies, namely the FBI, FDA and IRS. Novitsky had been with the IRS thirteen years before being involved with this case. If Novitsky in any way is misrepresenting Grimsley's statements, then he is risking his entire career and possibly imprisonment. He's got three other federal agents who heard the same story and Grimsley's defense attorney will certainly question each of these four agents.

Grimsley was free to leave at any time during the interview, and the agents actually corroborated a portion of his statements by having him call his supplier while they were there. So far, nothing that Grimsley said in his interview has been proven false. Don't make the federal agents the scapegoat in this affair, they were just doing their job.

I did read the affidavit...several times....and it does not state that other agents were present during the interview, only that agents from the other agencies requested, and were present, during the phone call Grimsley made.

I have no reason to disbelieve Norvisky's statements, and I'm not trying to make the fed agents out to be bad guys....just questioning whether the interview was recorded or done in the presence of others, which is not clearly stated in the affidavit. Norvisky is the only one who signed it.

[olehippi]

We don't know who the press's source is, but that is the person who "accused" Tejada, Roberts, and Gibbons. I must concede that there are many politically motivated people who have access to these documents both in Law Enforcement and Prosecutors.

The source only provided an unedited copy of the affidavit to be read, and the LA Times exposed the names. It was Grimsley who made the accusation in that affidavit. Whether he was coerced into naming names...who knows....which is why I would like to hear a recording of Grimsley's "interview."

[nadecir]

I did read the affidavit...several times....and it does not state that other agents were present during the interview, only that agents from the other agencies requested, and were present, during the phone call Grimsley made.

I have no reason to disbelieve Norvisky's statements, and I'm not trying to make the fed agents out to be bad guys....just questioning whether the interview was recorded or done in the presence of others, which is not clearly stated in the affidavit. Norvisky is the only one who signed it.

Re-read page nine of the affadavit. Under item #16, it clearly says that three other agents, Young, Rogers and Scott, along with Novitsky, were present for the questioning of Grimsley. The questioning lasted about two hours with the agents.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0607061grimsley9.html

[mdguy2415]

Welcome to the new reality of sports. Assume that anyone and everyone has done something against the ethics of sports and competition. There are some guys who may be nice and the epitome of a ballplayer, but we all need to get real and realize some of our heroes may have doped to get ahead.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone, just being a realist. As soon as MLB gets their head out the sand, then baseball can perhaps restore it's place as America's pasttime. Why is it that the NFL isn't scruntized nearly as much as MLB?

I think honestly, rather than pick apart the past and try to prove acts and allegations that may never be proven true, MLB needs to truly adopt a drug program that will remove all doubt about the sport being clean.

This may be all hearsay, but right now the Orioles are the laughing stock of all of baseball, and careers and reputations are being tarnished. IF MLB does not learn from this incident to shape up, then a great sport is even more grave trouble than it was last week...

[66-70-83-??]

I did read the affidavit...several times....and it does not state that other agents were present during the interview, only that agents from the other agencies requested, and were present, during the phone call Grimsley made.

I have no reason to disbelieve Norvisky's statements, and I'm not trying to make the fed agents out to be bad guys....just questioning whether the interview was recorded or done in the presence of others, which is not clearly stated in the affidavit. Norvisky is the only one who signed it.

Then you didn't read it very well.

It states clearly on page 9 that all four agents (Heather Young-FBI, Amy Scott-FDA, Jeff Novitzski-IRS, Erwin Roges-IRS) were present for all the questioning. And he was never restrained at any time. He was free to go at any time.

He chose to cooperate.

Now, after reading the entire thing, I am really surprised at the attacking of the agents credibility.

He chose to cooperate. Maybe now he (Grimsley) is backtracking because his name is "mud" around mlb.

EDIT: Nadecir clearly beat me to the punch in reference to page 9.

[olehippi]

Re-read page nine of the affadavit. Under item #16, it clearly says that three other agents, Young, Rogers and Scott, along with Novitsky, were present for the questioning of Grimsley. The questioning lasted about two hours with the agents.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0607061grimsley9.html

Thanks Nadecir....definitely missed that and I stand corrected. It seems this would lend credibility to Grimsley's initial statements, and less so for the back-tracking he seems to be doing now. But the question remains, is he making an assumption that Tejada, Roberts, and Gibbons were using steroids, or did he witness something?

[66-70-83-??]

Mr.N. Help me out here and we'll help you out. You played on the O's right? must be some big juicers on that team huh? that Tejada guy he gave Palmeiro the spiked B12 didn't he? Never gets injured, plays every game that's an indication of steroid use right? RIGHT!!!!!?

Mr.G. Uh, yeah, I guess so.

Mr.N. And that Roberts kid, Recovered pretty quick from that arm injury, didn't he?

MrG. Yeah.

Mr.N. HgH would do that for you wouldn't it?

Mr. G. Yes it would.

How about that Gibbons guy? Arms like Popeye, acne all over his back. You see that kind of thing with steroids users don't you?DON'T YOU!!!!???

Mr.G Yes, yes, you do.

Mr.N. Well thank you for your help Mr. G. we'll be in touch.

Cute.

Did you actually READ any of the affadavit ?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0607061grimsley1.html

Obviously not.

Grimsley volunteered where he bought stuff, how much he paid, etc.....

And you forgot about Mrs Y, Mrs S, Mr R- the other agents (FBI, IRS, FDA) who were also present for the questioning of the cooperative (unrestrained, free to go at any time) Grimsley.

With no evidence to back it up- you have questioned Novitzsky's credibility. Do you question the other three agents credibility too ?

[ejf1025]

I have a feeling that if these names were Ortiz, Nixon and Varitek or Cano, Sheffield and Matsui the board outrage and denial would be significantly less...dare I say the attitude would be self-righteous and almost gleeful.

We can argue semantics all we want...bottomline, Tejada has been fingered by 3 different players. Roberts had a very suspicious increase in body mass and power numbers. Gibbons has always looked suspicious.

And, in almost every instant where a player was publicly accused there have been no instances where the allegations were proven wrong and several instances were pretty damning circumstantial evidence supported the claims.

Thankfully, there is very little punnishment that can be dealt out. However, anyone who is not the least bit suspicious and/or skeptical has got their head in the sand.

[nadecir]

Thanks Nadecir....definitely missed that and I stand corrected. It seems this would lend credibility to Grimsley's initial statements, and less so for the back-tracking he seems to be doing now. But the question remains, is he making an assumption that Tejada, Roberts, and Gibbons were using steroids, or did he witness something?

Good question - I wonder if the agents did follow up with a question to Grimsley like "How did you know these guys used steroids? Did you see them use them?"

Maybe they ask the question, and the information was left out of the affadavit on purpose. Or maybe they missed the opportunity to ask a good clarifying question. My guess is that is that they did ask it, and we just don't have that answer yet.

[olehippi]

Then you didn't read it very well.

It states clearly on page 9 that all four agents (Heather Young-FBI, Amy Scott-FDA, Jeff Novitzski-IRS, Erwin Roges-IRS) were present for all the questioning. And he was never restrained at any time. He was free to go at any time.

He chose to cooperate.

Now, after reading the entire thing, I am really surprised at the attacking of the agents credibility.

He chose to cooperate. Maybe now he (Grimsley) is backtracking because his name is "mud" around mlb.

EDIT: Nadecir clearly beat me to the punch in reference to page 9.

Yeah, I stand corrected....I'm at work doing other things interspersed with being on OH....and my speed reading isn't very good.... I don't think the agents credibility can really be questioned either....I think that lies with Grimsley.

[El Gordo]

Cute.

Did you actually READ any of the affadavit ?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0607061grimsley1.html

Obviously not.

Grimsley volunteered where he bought stuff, how much he paid, etc.....

And you forgot about Mrs Y, Mrs S, Mr R- the other agents (FBI, IRS, FDA) who were also present for the questioning of the cooperative (unrestrained, free to go at any time) Grimsley.

With no evidence to back it up- you have questioned Novitzsky's credibility. Do you question the other three agents credibility too ?

Yes. And I will continue to until I read a transcript of the interview.