Poll= Was There More Pressure and Stress Down The Stretch Last Season Or Right Now?

[Old#5fan]

The Sox had already let them come back to tie it when Buckner made the error. You could make the argument that he just expedited to inevitable.

I know it is a different sport but how about Billy Cundiff? You don't think he felt the pressure and choked? Same could be said for Lee Evans. It is evident all the time in sports. Golf is probably one of the biggest examples of people tightening up under pressure. That is a sport you cannot play well unless you relax, moreso than any I know of.

[Can_of_corn]

Or someone acting like 52 other posters here are morons and six people including you are the only intelligent one's regarding this topic. Are you ever wrong about anything? Does that possibility even exist? When looking at how you are acting on this thread it certainaly is a valid question.

Do you have any idea how amusing it is watching you cling to the results of your rigged poll? A poll which, in reality, had nothing to do with the underlying question.

[Old#5fan]

Do you have any idea how amusing it is watching you cling to the results of your rigged poll? A poll which, in reality, had nothing to do with the underlying question.

Now it is the poll's fault. Yet you voted on it didn't you? Keep up with the "you are right and the rest of the OH is wrong baloney." You are the one looking bad not me. Again, as I told you before, post your own darn poll. Nothing is stopping you.

[Old#5fan]

I believe that you believe this is what happened.

I not only believe it, I was watching the game with my wife and son and predicted it. My wife still talks about it to this day (she's not a big baseball fan) as to how I "knew" he was going to have a meltdown.

[Old#5fan]

That was like 50 years ago. You're going in the wrong direction.

So human beings didn't have the same pressures that go with playing at the highest level of a sport back then as they do today? I guess you could make that argument, as they didn't get paid nearly as well, or are you arguing they had more? Not sure what your point is that you are trying to convey??

[CA-ORIOLE]

Oh forget it. He isn't a human being who played baseball and has problems is he? Right, he doesn't fit your all know-it-all thought process that baseball players are somehow superhuman individuals who never feel any sort of pressure as human beings. Again get real. Funny, yet 80% agree with me - just check the poll, yet you continue to display this high and mighty approach as if you are automatically correct and I and apparently the 50 or so others voting on this poll are all morons.

Guess what, maybe we are thinking that about you and your whopping five individuals that are thinking the way you are? Has that ever crossed your mind? I am not a shrink but it seems possible there is a narcissitic personality on display here that probably may be present in about five percent of the population. Maybe you should look it up, but one of the traits is feeling superior to other people for 80absolutely NO reason as when a poll shows 80% must be wrong for you to be right.

- Yes "Check the poll" and follow your ridiculous strawman logic..... Blah blah blah.

- Yes, Nick. JJ are choking from the pressure this year and a known player from 50 years ago with bipolar disorder is perfect example of what you're saying about players being affected by pressure. We should all read about it. Yes, of course I am attacking Jim Piersall's humanity because I am mean and don't agree with you.

- The 5-6 people that agree with me (or whatever it is) all responded in detail with logic, nuance, and critical thinking in debunking your black and white view of reality. I am perfectly happy to stand with them. Meanwhile you have purposely misrepresented a well respected posters opinion in your ridiculous poll, failed to respond to any post other than parroting more ridiculous drivel about how much "common sense" you have, that you've "watched baseball for 40 years", or continually cited your precious poll which doesn't even convey the point you are trying to make (pressure adversely affecting the Orioles performance this year).

[Old#5fan]

- Yes "Check the poll" and follow your ridiculous strawman logic..... Blah blah blah.

- Yes, Nick. JJ are choking from the pressure this year and a known player from 50 years ago with bipolar disorder is perfect example of what you're saying about players being affected by pressure. We should all read about it. Yes, of course I am attacking Jim Piersall's humanity because I am mean and don't agree with you.

- The 5-6 people that agree with me (or whatever it is) all responded in detail with logic, nuance, and critical thinking in debunking your black and white view of reality. I am perfectly happy to stand with them. Meanwhile you have purposely misrepresented a well respected posters opinion in your ridiculous poll, failed to respond to any post other than parroting more ridiculous drivel about how much "common sense" you have, that you've "watched baseball for 40 years", or continually cited your precious poll which doesn't even convey the point you are trying to make (pressure adversely affecting the Orioles performance this year).

Again, post your own poll if you are such a self proclaimed genius as you try to spin yourself to be. Sorry, just not seeing it, and I am not alone here, despite your bashing of me and my sorry poll (as you see it). I think it is a perfectly fine poll. Post a better one of you are so great.

[Can_of_corn]

Again, post your own poll if you are such a self proclaimed genius as you try to spin yourself to be. Sorry, just not seeing it, and I am not alone here, despite your bashing of me and my sorry poll (as you see it). I think it is a perfectly fine poll. Post a better one of you are so great.

Yes your poll is positively Shakespearean:

She should have died hereafter;

There would have been a time for such a word.

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,

Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,

To the last syllable of recorded time;

And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player

That struts and frets his hour upon the stage

And then is heard no more. It is a tale

Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury

Signifying nothing.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Again, post your own poll if you are such a self proclaimed genius as you try to spin yourself to be. Sorry, just not seeing it, and I am not alone here, despite your bashing of me and my sorry poll (as you see it). I think it is a perfectly fine poll. Post a better one of you are so great.

Well, as far as I know, I don't think there is any rule about not debating the poll and discussing it. Nor do I have any desire to post my own poll/thread because I find your poll and logic to be flawed.

[tntoriole]

"Pressure" is a subjective, lay term for performance related anxiety and stress...brain processes of which we neuroscientist types have some, but limited understanding. On the one hand, there are plenty of neuropsychological studies that do identify negative effects of stress, anxiety on performance in a wide range of complicated task performance situations and occupations. On the other hand, the individual prediction of a baseball player's performance as it relates to stress and anxiety is not a process that can be easily quantified as a baseball statistic because it is a neuropsychological construct, not a baseball statistic. Most managers, GMs, OH board posters etc. would have no idea how to predict or quantify the effects of stress on the brain and the performance in real time in baseball players, because there is no reliable methodology to actually study the brain/cortex during those activities. But, still,like other brain processes that are hard to understand, such as anxiety, schizophrenia or Alzheimer's disease, just because baseball fans may not understand or be able to measure how these processes occur in the brain is not the same as those processes being nonexistent. So, I think the real disagreement is between those who perhaps see an effect that indeed is not quantifiable but who want to use that impression to enhance their enjoyment of the game and those who want to use primarily quantifiable baseball statistical measurements as a means of understanding and predicting baseball performance which enhances their enjoyment of the game. Both of these viewpoints can coexist.

[CA-ORIOLE]

"Pressure" is a subjective, lay term for performance related anxiety and stress...brain processes of which we neuroscientist types have some, but limited understanding. On the one hand, there are plenty of neuropsychological studies that do identify negative effects of stress, anxiety on performance in a wide range of complicated task performance situations and occupations. On the other hand, the individual prediction of a baseball player's performance as it relates to stress and anxiety is not a process that can be easily quantified as a baseball statistic because it is a neuropsychological construct, not a baseball statistic. Most managers, GMs, OH board posters etc. would have no idea how to predict or quantify the effects of stress on the brain and the performance in real time in baseball players, because there is no reliable methodology to actually study the brain/cortex during those activities. But, still,like other brain processes that are hard to understand, such as anxiety, schizophrenia or Alzheimer's disease, just because baseball fans may not understand or be able to measure how these processes occur in the brain is not the same as those processes being nonexistent. So, I think the real disagreement is between those who perhaps see an effect that indeed is not quantifiable but who want to use that impression to enhance their enjoyment of the game and those who want to use primarily quantifiable baseball statistical measurements as a means of understanding and predicting baseball performance which enhances their enjoyment of the game. Both of these viewpoints can coexist.

Thanks for all that, but if you read through the opposing opinions on this, no one is saying that players are never affected by stress/pressure as Old5 fan has layed out in his poll/strawman argument. The point is that ML players (for the most part and in most situations) have reached a level where they can handle and manage stressful situations quite well. They have been battle tested. Also, stressful/pressure situations (high leverage/RISP/clutch etc.) can be measured and routinely correlate very well with a players overall statistical performance (over time/sample size).

I'm sure Jim Johnson is feeling some pressure/stress right now. Is that from the increased pressure of the team to make the playoffs this year or from his repeated failures to perform and execute on the field? I would argue it's the latter.

[tntoriole]

Thanks for all that, but if you read through the opposing opinions on this, no one is saying that players are never affected by stress/pressure as Old5 fan has layed it out in his poll/argument. The point is that ML players (for the most part and in most situations) have reached a level where they can handle and manage stressful situations quite well. They have been battle tested. Also, stressful/pressure situations (high leverage/RISP/clutch etc.) can be measured and routinely correlate very well with a players overall statistical performance (over time/sample size).

I'm sure Jim Johnson is feeling some pressure/stress right now. Is that from the increased pressure of the team to make the playoffs this year or from his repeated failures to perform and execute on the field? I would argue it's the latter.

I tend to agree. I do agree that performers at this level, as experienced performers in other areas, have developed compensatory mechanisms to cope with stress.

Measuring the real time effects of stress on a single individual performance is virtually impossible. At high levels of performance the effect is even more difficult to prospectively predict. For example, even if we know that sleep deprivation may affect performance levels of hitting a baseball or performing surgery, in highly proficient performers, those individual effects may not be even measurable and certainly not in a real time fashion. So, I guess I am saying that while there certainly are performance effects of stress for the individual , they are not real time measureable or predictable in any current, truly scientific way.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I tend to agree. I do agree that performers at this level, as experienced performers in other areas, have developed compensatory mechanisms to cope with stress. Measuring the real time effects of stress on a single individual performance is virtually impossible. At high levels of performance the effect is even more difficult to prospectively predict. For example, even if we know that sleep deprivation may affect performance levels of hitting a baseball or performing surgery, in highly proficient performers, those individual effects may not be even measurable and certainly not in a real time fashion. So, I guess I am saying that while there certainly are performance effects of stress for the individual , they are not real time measureable or predictable in any current, truly scientific way.

Yeah, I have no problem with any of that. Obviously, there isn't a provable mechanism here, particularly on a more micro level. I can certainly agree that we've had guys getting big FA contracts and be affected by stress/pressure. A rookie with less experience being affected by stress/pressure in certain situations etc. As with JJ, the more likely scenario is pressure from failure in performance rather than pressure inducing a failure to perform. I would argue that the former is a fairly systematic aspect that most players routinely learn to work through regularly.

In this case, I just don't buy old 5's logic that the Orioles players/performance is being adversely affected by stress/pressure from the higher expectations to make the playoffs this year, and pointing out specific players such as Nick and JJ as examples.

[Old#5fan]

Yes your poll is positively Shakespearean:

Man, are you out there or what? Quoting Shakespeare on the OH in a baseball thread. Great Scott! I can only imagine what it must be like actually attending an O's game with you. :eektf:You probably read Plato between innings!

[Can_of_corn]

Man, are you out there or what? Quoting Shakespeare on the OH in a baseball thread. Great Scott! I can only imagine what it must be like actually attending an O's game with you. :eektf:You probably read Plato between innings!

Just trying to raise the level of discourse.

You were after all commenting on my reading comprehension earlier.

Btw I don't read much Plate. Aristophanes on the other hand...