DFA Bud Norris...

[25 Nuggets]

Wow. I never really thought about that. That bronchitis he caught early in the year may have cost him millions.

I hope he can get back on track someday.

[OriolesMagic83]

@KenWeinmanSport: Bud Norris getting DFA'd brings #Orioles total to $20.1 million spent on DFA'd players. Don't think we'll have a repeat exec of year winner

Ouch

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Hard to win when you have so much "dead" money.

[TonySoprano]

I hear "hold him accountable" I think of putting him on trial. Then convicting him and running him out of town. For leaving this team in such a moribund state that it's only at .500. Better than the season's record for any Oriole team during the 14 years prior to his arrival.

For smiles and giggles, below are the last days the Orioles had a .500 record in those seasons. Note that in 10 of the 14, they Orioles were below .500 for the entire season after June 1st. The fanbase endured watching a sub .500 team for at least 4 months out of 6 for 10 seasons. Andy's next to last team, 2010, never saw one single day at .500 let alone above that mark. That team is book-ended by a 2009 club which stopped winning in late April and a 2011 club which was effectively done before Memorial Day.

1998 Sep-21

1999 Apr-07

2000 May-09

2001 May-27

2002 Aug-23

2003 May-18

2004 Jun-01

2005 Aug-17

2006 May-02

2007 May-31

2008 Jul-09

2009 Apr-23

2010 N/A

2011 May-26

[Rene88]

It's nice how the GM who took over a team in the midst of a 14-year string of losing seasons, took them to the playoffs two years in three, lapped the division in '14, now has to be held accountable for his myriad mistakes because on July 31st in year four they're just at .500.

I laughed a little. You make good points sir. But, Is that due to Buck's greatness or Dan's? I think the former.

I don't think DD is a bad GM. Def not. I think he is on a bad losing streak currently.

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[Nevermore]

Pretty classy. Wish him the best.

Bud my not be a great or even a good pitcher. But he's a classy guy. Have to give himthat. Wish himthe best. Perhaps some good coaching can make him better.

[Nevermore]

No, I think most of us understand. You're not a Duquette fan, you've wanted to sell for the past several years, and you think that the current state of the franchise's farm system overwhelms any good feelings that came from having a very good record and two playoff appearances over the last 3+ years.

Is it possible to discuss DD's successes and failures without going on whether or not a poster is or isn't a fan of DD? This is turning into "us" vs. "them" in too many instances.

[sportsfan8703]

Hard to win when you have so much "dead" money.

That's so true. Hopefully we can overcome that. So Hader got traded to the Brewers in part of the Carlos Gomez trade. After looking at the updated Brewers rankings. Davies is 11th and Hader is 15th.

[weams]

Is it possible to discuss DD's successes and failures without going on whether or not a poster is or isn't a fan of DD? This is turning into "us" vs. "them" in too many instances.

To an extent you are right. But as an Orioles fan, with a GM under contract until 2019, it is probably good to be a supporter of the front office. And have hope. Not to look for every opportunity to trash it like we all did for 14 years.

That in no way means that someone with the right knowledge can not dissect his failures and stand tall. It is just when the strawman arguments get used, they are normally lit on fire here.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I laughed a little. You make good points sir. But, Is that due to Buck's greatness or Dan's? I think the former.

I don't think DD is a bad GM. Def not. I think he is on a bad losing streak currently.

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Buck is a good manager, but if you think Buck is more responsible for our success than the GM then I think you're pretty far off base. In fact I'd say that for just about every GM/manager. Besides player acquisition, I think a fair amount of the strategies (roster manipulations, depth, shifts/defensive strategies) are driven by the front office. For example, before DD got here our primary defensive strategy consisted of Bucks "hug the line" strategy. Fortunately they seem to work together pretty well and Buck grasps the analytics side. Aside from that and despite the criticism I do think scouting and development are a lot better than they were before DD got here.

[hoosiers]

To an extent you are right. But as an Orioles fan, with a GM under contract until 2019, it is probably good to be a supporter of the front office. And have hope. Not to look for every opportunity to trash it like we all did for 14 years.

That in no way means that someone with the right knowledge can not dissect his failures and stand tall. It is just when the strawman arguments get used, they are normally lit on fire here.

Can you clarify this, Weams? I mean, this was a perfectly good thread on Bud Norris (and his contribution, his good guy-ness, and the cost to acquire him), wasn't it? You know, before Drungo makes it a referendum on me and my perceived fondness for our GM and suddenly it's a referendum on our GM .... wasn't it? And so a poster asking for this thread to stay on point is only right "to an extent" and that somehow strawman arguments have entered into this discussion?

Maybe you can lead us back on point ...... What do you think of Bud Norris and his contributions to the Orioles? And maybe after that, TonyS and Drungo and stay on point and answer the same.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Can you clarify this, Weams? I mean, this was a perfectly good thread on Bud Norris (and his contribution, his good guy-ness, and the cost to acquire him), wasn't it? You know, before Drungo makes it a referendum on me and my perceived fondness for our GM and suddenly it's a referendum on our GM .... wasn't it? And so a poster asking for this thread to stay on point is only right "to an extent" and that somehow strawman arguments have entered into this discussion?

Maybe you can lead us back on point ...... What do you think of Bud Norris and his contributions to the Orioles? And maybe after that, TonyS and Drungo and stay on point and answer the same.

Seems to me you're the one that decided to make this thread a scathing indictment of our GM. Should that discussion not include he GMs total performance or do we have to play along with your rules as you isolate and hyperbolize every poor performance and shortcoming? l think everybody recognizes that Norris has been pretty bad this year.

[TonySoprano]

Can you clarify this, Weams? I mean, this was a perfectly good thread on Bud Norris (and his contribution, his good guy-ness, and the cost to acquire him), wasn't it? You know, before Drungo makes it a referendum on me and my perceived fondness for our GM and suddenly it's a referendum on our GM .... wasn't it?

You're the one who brought up the "prior regime," so why the beef with me pointing out their record?

I believe the prior regime cut bait and paid Jay Gibbons $12M to not be a part of the Orioles with two seasons to go in his contract.

Now help with this.

This front office also hung onto Norris long enough into July this year for Bud to produce -2.0 WAR while mostly keeping Kevin Gausman out of the rotation. No other Oriole in the DD era has produced below a -1.1 WAR before being shut down.

Go ahead and praise Dan Duquette at the expense of prior regimes, but IMO you got it all wrong.

You complain about the cost of obtaining Norris ("top 10 prospects, a high draft pick and international slots") who after 39 games in 2013-14 had a +2.1 WAR. Would you have gotten rid of him right after that? Instead, since he came at such a cost that bothered you, would you see what he had in 2015? Your main complaint then is we should have eaten his contract sooner this year?

You cite the example of Jay Gibbons who had a -1.1 WAR in 2007. Why did MacPhail, who was hired June 20,2007, let him finish the season? Should he have cut him sooner? Or can we assume that Andy, like Dan, wanted a longer look to see if the player was truly finished? I'm sure the HGH revelations about Gibbons made Andy's decision to cut him easier. Nah, Andy was just a better evaluator of talent, which is why his teams did so well the four years he was here.

How about Tillman? 2.4 WAR last year 0.4 this year. Dan stuck with him and he has turned it around in July. Bud wasn't able to turn it around, unfortunately, but I don't fault the organization for giving him a chance to do so.

ETA: Remind me who was the GM in 2011 when Matusz posted a WAR of -2.3. Matusz broke Halladay's record of worst ever ERA of a pitcher with at least 10 starts.

[hoosiers]

I will start with your first point, Tony, and your reading comprehension abilities.

Who in this thread brought up prior regimes first? Was it me?

[waroriole]

I will start with your first point, Tony, and your reading comprehension abilities.

Who in this thread brought up prior regimes first? Was it me?

Somebody needs a nap.

[Nevermore]

To an extent you are right. But as an Orioles fan, with a GM under contract until 2019, it is probably good to be a supporter of the front office. And have hope. Not to look for every opportunity to trash it like we all did for 14 years.

That in no way means that someone with the right knowledge can not dissect his failures and stand tall. It is just when the strawman arguments get used, they are normally lit on fire here.

The problem is that I don't always support the front office. Sometimes I object to what they are doing. That doesn't mean that I don't support the team.

Just to clarify: In my view, the Orioles are not necessarily the front office. It's the players who make up the team. They pitch, they bat, they run, they catch flies, they throw runners out. The front office helps to put the team together and manage the team. But it's mainly the players who actually make up the team that I root for.

This might be semantical nit-picking but I had to make myself clear.