DFA Bud Norris...

[weams]

Can you clarify this, Weams? I mean, this was a perfectly good thread on Bud Norris (and his contribution, his good guy-ness, and the cost to acquire him), wasn't it? You know, before Drungo makes it a referendum on me and my perceived fondness for our GM and suddenly it's a referendum on our GM .... wasn't it? And so a poster asking for this thread to stay on point is only right "to an extent" and that somehow strawman arguments have entered into this discussion?

Maybe you can lead us back on point ...... What do you think of Bud Norris and his contributions to the Orioles? And maybe after that, TonyS and Drungo and stay on point and answer the same.

I like Bud Norris. I loved his bulldog mentality. I loved his game three grit and determination. I think we got good value out of him. He was awful this year. We kept him too long.

[hoosiers]

I like Bud Norris. I loved his bulldog mentality. I loved his game three grit and determination. I think we got good value out of him. He was awful this year. We kept him too long.

Thanks, Weams. Appreciate the perspective.

[weams]

The problem is that I don't always support the front office. Sometimes I object to what they are doing. That doesn't mean that I don't support the team.

Just to clarify: In my view, the Orioles are not necessarily the front office. It's the players who make up the team. They pitch, they bat, they run, they catch flies, they throw runners out. The front office helps to put the team together and manage the team. But it's mainly the players who actually make up the team that I root for.

This might be semantical nit-picking but I had to make myself clear.

That's cool. You are absolutely permitted to question or disagree. But it is probably not a healthy obsession to question the Front Office's every move in that this is the front office that revolutionized how the Orioles as an entity operate and brought the ownership kicking and screaming into the 21st century. With a door opened by Andy MacPhail but never walked through.

No one needs to like Dan or his methods to be an Orioles fan.

Heck, I am uncertain that Dan is an Orioles fan.

I do think he is a winning GM.

[Nevermore]

I believe the prior regime cut bait and paid Jay Gibbons $12M to not be a part of the Orioles with two seasons to go in his contract.

This front office gave up top 10 prospects, a high draft pick and international slots for the privilege of paying the incredibly average/below average Bud Norris $15M for .1 WAR of production over about two seasons. It is the kind of decision that causes the Orioles to be passed in that two year time frame by the team we won the bidding to acquire Norris from.

This front office also hung onto Norris long enough into July this year for Bud to produce -2.0 WAR while mostly keeping Kevin Gausman out of the rotation. No other Oriole in the DD era has produced below a -1.1 WAR before being shut down.

Go ahead and praise Dan Duquette at the expense of prior regimes, but IMO you got it all wrong.

Actually, it wasn't Norris who kept Kevin Gausman out of the rotation. Norris was penciled into the rotation right from the start of the 2015 season because of his stellar record in 2014. This did make a lot of sense at the time. No one truly knew that Norris would implode the way he did. Once he did show that he was imploding, Buck (with DD's blessing) took him out of the rotation.

So what or who did keep Gausman out of the rotation? The problem turned out to be 6 starting pitchers and only 5 rotation spots. So why didn't DD trade or DFA one of these starters? Because of the possibility of injury to any of these starters. Which makes sense. We had a zillion different threads and polls during ST and right after about who should be left off of the rotation. I'm not beating any of these dead horses right now. So I will express my support of Buck and DD on the Bud Norris issue.

[weams]

You're the one who brought up the "prior regime," so why the beef with me pointing out their record? Now help with this.

You complain about the cost of obtaining Norris ("top 10 prospects, a high draft pick and international slots") who after 39 games in 2013-14 had a +2.1 WAR. Would you have gotten rid of him right after that? Instead, since he came at such a cost that bothered you, would you see what he had in 2015? Your main complaint then is we should have eaten his contract sooner this year?

You cite the example of Jay Gibbons who had a -1.1 WAR in 2007. Why did MacPhail, who was hired June 20,2007, let him finish the season? Should he have cut him sooner? Or can we assume that Andy, like Dan, wanted a longer look to see if the player was truly finished? I'm sure the HGH revelations about Gibbons made Andy's decision to cut him easier. Nah, Andy was just a better evaluator of talent, which is why his teams did so well the four years he was here.

How about Tillman? 2.4 WAR last year 0.4 this year. Dan stuck with him and he has turned it around in July. Bud wasn't able to turn it around, unfortunately, but I don't fault the organization for giving him a chance to do so.

ETA: Remind me who was the GM in 2011 when Matusz posted a WAR of -2.3. Matusz broke Halladay's record of worst ever ERA of a pitcher with at least 10 starts.

You forgot Garrett Atkins. And Felix Pie. And Adam Eaton.

[weams]

Actually, it wasn't Norris who kept Kevin Gausman out of the rotation. Norris was penciled into the rotation right from the start of the 2015 season because of his stellar record in 2014. This did make a lot of sense at the time. No one truly knew that Norris would implode the way he did. Once he did show that he was imploding, Buck (with DD's blessing) took him out of the rotation.

So what or who did keep Gausman out of the rotation? The problem turned out to be 6 starting pitchers and only 5 rotation spots. So why didn't DD trade or DFA one of these starters? Because of the possibility of injury to any of these starters. Which makes sense. We had a zillion different threads and polls during ST and right after about who should be left off of the rotation. I'm not beating any of these dead horses right now. So I will express my support of Buck and DD on the Bud Norris issue.

You know I like the players of the team and wish they all stayed young, productive, and loyal.

[hoosiers]

Somebody needs a nap.

Ha ha. I had thought this was supposed to be a good discussion on Bud Norris .....

Drungo decided it was about me with his "you don't like DD, you this, you that" ridiculousness. And then TonyS decides that the Bud Norris thread deserves a mention of the last day of a bunch of seasons the Os were at .500 - as if that is remotely relevant. Then Tony starts telling me I started distracting the thread with mention of prior regimes - which isn't remotely accurate.

Hey, if I had known mentioning some statistical facts (and a correction of another poster which apparently had already been made by someone else) about Bud Norris in a Bud Norris thread would be treated as it was, I would not have participated. There was no agenda in that post other than to discuss Norris. And I wasn't the first poster to mention folks moving this thread off-topic. If leaving this thread will get this back to a discussion on Bud Norris, I'll leave and go take my recommended nap. Thanks for the advice, WarO.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Ha ha. I had thought this was supposed to be a good discussion on Bud Norris .....

Drungo decided it was about me with his "you don't like DD, you this, you that" ridiculousness. And then TonyS decides that the Bud Norris thread deserves a mention of the last day of a bunch of seasons the Os were at .500 - as if that is remotely relevant. Then Tony starts telling me I started distracting the thread with mention of prior regimes - which isn't remotely accurate.

Hey, if I had known mentioning some statistical facts (and a correction of another poster which apparently had already been made by someone else) about Bud Norris in a Bud Norris thread would be treated as it was, I would not have participated. There was no agenda in that post other than to discuss Norris. And I wasn't the first poster to mention folks moving this thread off-topic. If leaving this thread will get this back to a discussion on Bud Norris, I'll leave and go take my recommended nap. Thanks for the advice, WarO.

LOL. Yeah no agenda here. Hoosiers just interjecting a couple Norris statistical facts, because you know, some of us might not have realized that Bud Norris wasn't very good this year.

[gmelson26]

I'd like to request this thread be locked or something. I just spent 3 pages of reading about a personal issue and not really about what I was expecting.

[weams]

I'd like to request this thread be locked or something. I just spent 3 pages of reading about a personal issue and not really about what I was expecting.

If it were locked, you would still have read it.

[Nevermore]

I like Bud Norris. I loved his bulldog mentality. I loved his game three grit and determination. I think we got good value out of him. He was awful this year. We kept him too long.

You know what was sad? About a month ago, one of the Orioles' promotional give aways was a T-shirt designed by Bud Norris. The shirt said, "my team, my home" (or something similar) on the front with Bud's signature and number. At tonight's game, a few fans, including one who was sitting next to me was wearing this shirt. I thought to myself, "it's not Bud's team nor home any longer."

[Reboulet'sStache]

I think we got good value out of him.

We got .2 WAR out of him, and paid 14m+, 2 minor league players and a draft pick for the privilege of doing so. It was a horrible deal.

[TonySoprano]

It seems we have a lot of people here using WAR as their argument of choice.

Chris Tillman:

2013 206.1 IP + 4.4;

2014 207.1 IP + 2.4;

2015 113.2 IP +0.4.*

Does anybody notice a trend? Despite the big drop in WAR from 2013 to 2014, there were several people here who thought we should give him a contract extension. *My guess is Tillman had a negative WAR prior to July, where he has made a big improvement over April-June.

Norris:

2013 50.2 IP +0.2;

2014 165.1 IP + 1.9;

2015 66.1 IP - 1.9

I haven't seen a single post where people felt Norris didn't soil the bed this season. That's indisputable.

However, where were the people calling for Tillman to be DFA after his performance through June? If Tillman had continued to struggle this month, does anyone want to say he should have been DFA?

Yes, we gave up a bit to get Norris. But that is why he was also given an extended chance to get it together.

Keep in mind two months ago -

Orioles starting pitcher Bud Norris was so sick last week he lost 14 pounds, could barely get out of bed and summoned his parents to to Baltimore to help.

It's been a frustrating situation for the 30-year-old right-hander, but at least he got some homemade chicken soup out of the deal.

"I basically slept all day. Every time I got out of bed for 20, 30 minutes, I got so weak I had to get back in bed," said Norris, who was diagnosed with bronchitis. "My parents came into town and stayed a couple nights with me, which was extremely helpful. I got some homemade chicken noodle soup from my mom, which I was really excited about, actually."

After taking antibiotics and resting, Norris said he is feeling much better.

"I didn't know how much it took out of me," said Norris, who left his start May 10 with flu-like symptoms and was then scratched the following weekend with a recurrence.

source - Baltimore Sun, May 25, 2015

Were we supposed to kick him to the curb right then or should we have given him a chance to rebound, just as we've patiently done with Tillman this year? I think it was worth a salvage project to see if he had bullpen use. Showalter said a couple times he had a long memory and recited how Bud won 15 games last year. I'm as big a fan of Gausman as anyone here, and would not trade him if at all possible. Having said that, let's not forget how he did in 2 of his first 3 starts in July, 11 ER in 9.2 IP.

In short, given Norris' cost to acquire, an $8.8M 2015 salary, his illness, and similar struggles with Tillman, when exactly would any of you cut him loose? June? sooner? When would you have cut bait entirely?

[Reboulet'sStache]

In short, given Norris' cost to acquire, an $8.8M 2015 salary, his illness, and similar struggles with Tillman, when exactly would any of you cut him loose? June? sooner? When would you have cut bait entirely?

I would have cut him loose in November of 2014.

[Stotle]

Sounds pretty smart now. So you would have cut Norris, coming off a good year, and fully expected Jimenez to get back on track this year?

Or traded him for a cheap back-end type as depth, sure.