How much longer do we hang onto...

[Sports Guy]

...the idea that AM made 2 really good trades last offseason?

We all agree they were good trades for us but how much longer do we allow AM to hang his hat on them?

How much longer do people continue to give him a pass because he says the right things(not do, says) and that he made those 2 trades?

[Mackus]

At least until he starts making some poor moves, or gives any indication that his plan isn't exactly what the team needs to be doing.

Every indication is that he is still being smart and following the general rebuilding plan. Small details may be a bit different than some people's "ideal plan" but as long as the general outline is right, and it is, then I'm fine with MacPhail.

[Camden_yardbird]

This offseason...

AM made two great trades, but it will take a few good trades and insightful signings to get the O's where they need to be....as well as a good system.

To that end, I think there needs to be improvement every year. The Orioles, in the AL East, are not a team that can take two steps forward and one step back and end up competing. I think AM understands that. And an offseason without any improvement is one step back in my opinion. I know that sometimes the signing are just not there, and the trades are not being offered, but in those rare circumstances something else needs to be done to help the organization. The Orioles could sign no one and make no trades, and I would be happy as long as they major scouting advances, opened acadamies, or otherwise improved the likelihood of acquiring better talent.

Its a tough standard, and maybe one day the team will be at the point where they can hide a bad signing or a bad trade, but that is not now.

[geschinger]

The next logical point to grade his performance is what we go into Spring Training with and then what the opening day roster is.

[Mackus]

If anybody's goal is for the Orioles to be exactly where they need to be heading into OD of next season, then I really hope they are disappointed. I think the "ideal" path to follow still has us looking like an also-ran next year. If some of the pitchers develop very quickly, or we get big bounce-backs from Cabrera, Liz, and/or Olson maybe we can contend, but that should be the only way. Signing a bunch of average veterans for a one- or two-year window would be a tragic mistake.

[Moose Milligan]

At least until he starts making some poor moves, or gives any indication that his plan isn't exactly what the team needs to be doing.

Every indication is that he is still being smart and following the general rebuilding plan. Small details may be a bit different than some people's "ideal plan" but as long as the general outline is right, and it is, then I'm fine with MacPhail.

Agree with this.

[Frobby]

I don't really understand the point of this thread. Everyone at this point agrees that those were two really good (indeed, great) trades. And I think the vast majority of people wish he'd managed to do a bit more than that. Like find a shortstop with a pulse, or manage to dump one or two veterans. Nobody said the guy was perfect.

One thing we don't know yet is whether he got anyone of value in the Bradford trade. To me that information is important in judging how he has done between the Bedard trade and now. If it was a salary dump, I give that move an F. If we got someone with a future, I might give it an A. We will have to see.

I don't think he did a bad job at all of bringing a lot of arms into the system. He assembled a lot of hard throwers towards the end of last season, he picked up Bierd in the Rule 5 draft, and then this spring or later he brought in Cormier, Bass and Simon. If we can have decent luck with pitchers coming back from injuries, I think there is a lot of depth for the bullpen and plausible 4th/5th starter candidates.

Going with a totally unproven backup catcher was a bold move that I liked. It failed, in my opinion, but that was worth a try instead of going for a guy like Bako.

Now the offseason approaches, and as I said before (you disagreed), I think he has some tough decisions and a difficult job ahead of him. The slate is clean and starts anew so far as I'm concerned. He's gotten the credit he deserved for the Tejada and Bedard trade, but those are in the past. He needs to improve shortstop, find some decent starters to build a bridge to our group that will arrive between late 2009 and early 2011, sign Nick Markakis long term, make some hard decisions about Roberts and Huff, find a way to eke some value out of Ramon Hernandez, come up with a new plan for back-up catcher, and decide whether to keep all of Scott, Reimold and Montanez or trade one to get something else we need. It will be interesting to see what he does.

[El Gordo]

AM did a fine job last winter. Unless you can show that he turned down good value at the trade deadline, then he did the right thing to hold on to BRob, Sherrill, Huff, etc. as there was no evidence that there was much of a demand for them. He needs to have another good winter to continue the plan. If by OD we have not significantly improved the club then I'll start questioning him. We need to upgrade our IF and SP. It doesn't matter to me how he does it, trade or FA, waver, or draft.

[Sports Guy]

I don't really understand the point of this thread. Everyone at this point agrees that those were two really good (indeed, great) trades. And I think the vast majority of people wish he'd managed to do a bit more than that. Like find a shortstop with a pulse, or manage to dump one or two veterans. Nobody said the guy was perfect.

One thing we don't know yet is whether he got anyone of value in the Bradford trade. To me that information is important in judging how he has done between the Bedard trade and now. If it was a salary dump, I give that move an F. If we got someone with a future, I might give it an A. We will have to see.

I don't think he did a bad job at all of bringing a lot of arms into the system. He assembled a lot of hard throwers towards the end of last season, he picked up Bierd in the Rule 5 draft, and then this spring or later he brought in Cormier, Bass and Simon. If we can have decent luck with pitchers coming back from injuries, I think there is a lot of depth for the bullpen and plausible 4th/5th starter candidates.

Going with a totally unproven backup catcher was a bold move that I liked. It failed, in my opinion, but that was worth a try instead of going for a guy like Bako.

Now the offseason approaches, and as I said before (you disagreed), I think he has some tough decisions and a difficult job ahead of him. The slate is clean and starts anew so far as I'm concerned. He's gotten the credit he deserved for the Tejada and Bedard trade, but those are in the past. He needs to improve shortstop, find some decent starters to build a bridge to our group that will arrive between late 2009 and early 2011, sign Nick Markakis long term, make some hard decisions about Roberts and Huff, find a way to eke some value out of Ramon Hernandez, come up with a new plan for back-up catcher, and decide whether to keep all of Scott, Reimold and Montanez or trade one to get something else we need. It will be interesting to see what he does.

A lot of people are just assuming everything is going to be fine.

I am not sure how you can assume that.

Bigbird has brought up the point that AM has done very little since the Bedard trade and he is 100% right.

I think AM gets a pass on here because of the 2 trades..Don't get me wrong, he did a good job with those trades but he has a ton more to do.

For me, he gets the offseason...If he doesn't make MANY more strides, then he is going to start looking like the previous GMs around here.

He talks a good game but he has a long ways to go before he backs it up.

[hoosiers]

We'll see what AM does this offseason to fix a spot or two in the rotation and SS, what he does with Huff and BRob, and what FA signings he goes for, and what bp arms we go with on OD.

Rome was not built in a day, but slow and steady will not win in the ALEast.

I think AM could field a 75 win team without much effort next offseason assuming Guts, Ray, Sherrill and JJ are healthy and BRob and Huff have not been traded.

I really want to start seeing some tangible signs (pun intended) that we will be a player internationally. If we could add an organizational top 15-20 prospect or two every year, that would go a long way with me. That would be a major signal that AM is re-allocating resources in a smart fashion.

[clarence]

I still think that we could have a historically bad season in us next year, and AM could still do the right things. If he can unload BRob, Huff, and Sherrill and get a good return then I'll be pleased, even if it isn't players who make an immediate impact next season. I think this is really better long-term for the franchise than going after three or four second tier free agents. Also, giving young players the majority of the at-bats next season instead of the usual old retreads would be a step forward, regardless of how we end in the standings.

I truly believe the key to building a long-term winner is going to involve spending a bunch of over-slot money in the draft, and being aggressive with spending in Latin America. We aren't going to build a long-term competitive franchise without doing these two things. The ALEast is too tough to think that you can duct tape a problem (a few free agents) and find sustained success.

AM is going to need time to turn this thing around.

[JTrea81]

The problem I have is that he made no August trades except for Bradford for a PTBNL. That is very un MacPhail like as Andy has used August to swing a ton of deals with teams he's been the GM of the past. Heck even last year we traded Parrish for Boucher who helped out Bowie this year and then got the return on Trachsel.

This year we barely made a whimper on the transaction list. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we made the fewest transactions in all of baseball. After an offseason of so many huge moves, MacPhail during this season failed the major league ballclub in a big way, and maybe it was all part of his plan, but he's going to have to do something major this offseason to make up for the lack of activity this season.

[ChaosLex]

For me, he gets the offseason...

That's my line of thinking too.

[Frobby]

A lot of people are just assuming everything is going to be fine.

I am not sure how you can assume that.

Bigbird has brought up the point that AM has done very little since the Bedard trade and he is 100% right.

I think AM gets a pass on here because of the 2 trades..Don't get me wrong, he did a good job with those trades but he has a ton more to do.

For me, he gets the offseason...If he doesn't make MANY more strides, then he is going to start looking like the previous GMs around here.

He talks a good game but he has a long ways to go before he backs it up.

Well, you and I don't really disagree. If we disagree at all, we disagree about how easy it is to do some of these things. I don't think it's so easy. But I will still judge him on how much he accomplishes. It's a very important offseason for us.

[SteveA]

A lot of people are just assuming everything is going to be fine.

I am not sure how you can assume that.

Really? Reading this board the past few days I see very, very few rose-colored glasses type posts. I see far more people who realize we still have a long way to go to be competitive. Even those who say we could contend next year are basing that one some major offseason free agent acquisitions and a lot of luck-type things breaking our way.

Bigbird has brought up the point that AM has done very little since the Bedard trade and he is 100% right.

How many GMs have done much of anything since late January to improve their team's long-term competitive postiion, outside of drafting? The only ones that come to mind are the ones that had big pieces to deal to contenders on July 31 (Sabathia, Harden, etc). For whatever reason, it does not appear that Roberts or Huff was in demand in late July.

I think AM gets a pass on here because of the 2 trades..Don't get me wrong, he did a good job with those trades but he has a ton more to do.

What does "get a pass" mean, exactly? I guess if I were grading him on a pass/fail basis, I would have to give him "pass" for what he has done so far. He hasn't failed, at least not yet. But if it's letter grades, I think you would see a wide, wide range of grades on here from A down to D+, or Incompletes. I don't think there would be that many A's, either. There is a general consensus on this board that he botched the shortstop situation in the last year. There were more people disappointed than happy that there were no significant July 31 trades; the most pro-McPhail people said things like "well, I guess we didn't get a good offer". There were very few people applauding the Trachsel signing.

There are hundreds and hundreds of people who post here. You can probably find examples of someone taking nearly any position you might imagine. But I certainly don't see any type of significant trend towards MacPhail worship here. If there is a general consensus at all, it is that our organization is stronger than it was top to bottom when he took over, but I think there is also a general consensus that we have a long way to go. The idea that there is some large segment of people here who think he can do no wrong is clearly a strawman. If you are implying that there aren't enough people demanding he be fired for failing to do what is necessary....well, that is a fringe position that I think very few would share. I guess if someone is way out on the fringe on one side or the other, moderate opinions can look radical...I know the ultra-right-wing John Birch Society once labelled President Eisenhower, of all people, as a communist.

I just don't see that much of the attitude that you seem to be upset exists here.