The second guessing Hyde thread.

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The problem is you need to start warming guys up several batters in advance. You don't have the luxury of knowing exactly what the situation is going to be, only what batter they are going to face. Also I believe it was a RHB and we don't have a lot of RHP options outside of Cano. I guess Wells?

Taking time for guys to warm up is fair, but someone (Webb) had to have been warm in time to allow that grand slam.  It didn't have to be Webb, is all I'm saying...I'd have preferred for Hyde to have used a high leverage, later inning reliever in that spot even though the game was in the nascent innings.

Webb and Baker are mop up guys at this point.  

I checked the splits, Perez is indeed not the best against RHB.  But ideally we get some guys this offseason that can get batters out no matter what side of the plate they're standing on.

[tntoriole]

4 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The problem is you need to start warming guys up several batters in advance. You don't have the luxury of knowing exactly what the situation is going to be, only what batter they are going to face. Also I believe it was a RHB and we don't have a lot of RHP options outside of Cano. I guess Wells?

Baker was required to face 3 guys..hard to start warming a guy in the pen as soon he started the inning and also got the first guy .. unless you just expect the then THREE walks .. because Webb pitched yesterday i think he was the only righty able to get ready fast enough right then. 
 

But all of this is Grod .. only five outs from him sealed all the rest of the moves required. 

[tntoriole]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Taking time for guys to warm up is fair, but someone (Webb) had to have been warm in time to allow that grand slam.  It didn't have to be Webb, is all I'm saying...I'd have preferred for Hyde to have used a high leverage, later inning reliever in that spot even though the game was in the nascent innings.

Webb and Baker are mop up guys at this point.  

I checked the splits, Perez is indeed not the best against RHB.  But ideally we get some guys this offseason that can get batters out no matter what side of the plate they're standing on.

I too agree with the strategy of offseason or trade enhancement.. but in fairness to Elias .. offseason 2022 ..Dillon Tate was money and nobody expected him to give nothing in 2023, Givens was signed and expected to be something and was nothing , Coulombe and Cano were nothings who gave us a lot ..

Webb gave us something at first then imploded, Fuji was all over .. Baker was money last year and sucked this year

 

It is a real crapshoot in bullpens out there for GMs .. on boards we get it right all the time lol. 

And right or wrong I think Elias said .. I am holding my prospects as per plan  for 2024 and beyond and not going to disrupt it even if it means we can get no stellar reliever for 2023 run and lose.   Now if he had known Bautista would go down? Different outcome at trade deadline. 

 

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

I too agree with the strategy of offseason or trade enhancement.. but in fairness to Elias .. offseason 2022 ..Dillon Tate was money and nobody expected him to give nothing in 2023, Givens was signed and expected to be something and was nothing , Coulombe and Cano were nothings who gave us a lot ..

Webb gave us something at first then imploded, Fuji was all over .. Baker was money last year and sucked this year

 

It is a real crapshoot in bullpens out there for GMs .. on boards we get it right all the time lol. 

And right or wrong I think Elias said .. I am holding my prospects as per plan  for 2024 and beyond and not going to disrupt it even if it means we can get no stellar reliever for 2023 run and lose.   Now if he had known Bautista would go down? Different outcome at trade deadline. 

 

Which is exactly why you go out and get an impact guy at the trading deadline. The chances are he's not going to implode down the stretch. I'm not saying you give up a Holliday, Basallo or Mayo for one, but depending on who the impact guy is and how much control you have, everyone else should be available in the right deal.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, tntoriole said:

I too agree with the strategy of offseason or trade enhancement.. but in fairness to Elias .. offseason 2022 ..Dillon Tate was money and nobody expected him to give nothing in 2023, Givens was signed and expected to be something and was nothing , Coulombe and Cano were nothings who gave us a lot ..

Webb gave us something at first then imploded, Fuji was all over .. Baker was money last year and sucked this year

 

It is a real crapshoot in bullpens out there for GMs .. on boards we get it right all the time lol. 

And right or wrong I think Elias said .. I am holding my prospects as per plan  for 2024 and beyond and not going to disrupt it even if it means we can get no stellar reliever for 2023 run and lose.   Now if he had known Bautista would go down? Different outcome at trade deadline. 

 

Yeah, but the advantage you have in the FA market when it comes to bullpen pieces is that you can go after guys that have bucked the trend.  I mean, GOOD guys like Hader (who I know we won't go after this year) or Kimbrel or David Robertson.  Makes things a bit more predictable.

I don't recall Elias saying that he's going to hold his prospects...if he did, fine.  But that doesn't tell us who he thinks of as a prospect and who he'd feel comfortable sending away in a trade.

[Moshagge3]

Who was the best reliever moved at the deadline? (Chapman got traded on June 30.) Jordan Hicks? Maybe the Orioles should have been in on Hicks, but he's a great candidate to come in and walk three guys, too.

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Which is exactly why you go out and get an impact guy at the trading deadline. The chances are he's not going to implode down the stretch. I'm not saying you give up a Holliday, Basallo or Mayo for one, but depending on who the impact guy is and how much control you have, everyone else should be available in the right deal.

I agree with you .. I was a Hader advocate here .. but obviously Elias disagrees lol 

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, but the advantage you have in the FA market when it comes to bullpen pieces is that you can go after guys that have bucked the trend.  I mean, GOOD guys like Hader (who I know we won't go after this year) or Kimbrel or David Robertson.  Makes things a bit more predictable.

I don't recall Elias saying that he's going to hold his prospects...if he did, fine.  But that doesn't tell us who he thinks of as a prospect and who he'd feel comfortable sending away in a trade.

Of course, Elias certainly knew he needed bullpen help and knew it better than us on a board .. he assesed the market for it thoroughly and felt whatever was out there was not worth the prospects required.  From what I have read Sig is even more of a hoarding prospect advocate..will try to locate that article 

I was a Hader trade advocate at the deadline but agree it wasn’t and isn’t likely. 
The Bautista injury burned the Elias strategy of hoarding as we may have gotten through .. on the flip side, some of those prospects saved may be what creates a run for the next 4 years 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, tntoriole said:

Of course, Elias certainly knew he needed bullpen help and knew it better than us on a board ..

Poppycock.  We know everything.  

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, tntoriole said:

Of course, Elias certainly knew he needed bullpen help and knew it better than us on a board .. he assesed the market for it thoroughly and felt whatever was out there was not worth the prospects required.  From what I have read Sig is even more of a hoarding prospect advocate..will try to locate that article 

I was a Hader trade advocate at the deadline but agree it wasn’t and isn’t likely. 
The Bautista injury burned the Elias strategy of hoarding as we may have gotten through .. on the flip side, some of those prospects saved may be what creates a run for the next 4 years 

I also read somewhere (I think it was that Astroball book) that Sig was a prospect hoarder.

It's getting a bit silly.  Can't save them all.  Some are going to be needed to be traded.

[tntoriole]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Poppycock.  We know everything.  

Particularly down 2 games in ALDS…our keen collective wisdom is manifest across the OH realm … Oh that Elias and his minions .. if thou had but listened to me!! 

[LA2]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

It’s hard to blame Hyde when we walked the world last night. I’m sure they said don’t let Seager beat you, but also you just can’t walk him every AB. Haha

Someone went overboard with the messages of caution, whether it was Hyde, Holt or Ken Rosenthal 

[tntoriole]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

I also read somewhere (I think it was that Astroball book) that Sig was a prospect hoarder.

It's getting a bit silly.  Can't save them all.  Some are going to be needed to be traded.

I think the 2023 success did really catch Elias a bit off guard and i think the original plan for trading was and is this offseason 

And it takes two partners to trade and maybe the market was just too rich in his judgement.. don’t know what was offered or turned down, etc 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

15 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

I agree with you .. I was a Hader advocate here .. but obviously Elias disagrees lol 

With the Padres it doesn't seem like they were selling or perhaps they were asking a crazy return like the White Sox demanding Holliday for Dylan Cease.

[LA2]

3 hours ago, 24fps said:

Actually I was responding to the post directly above the one I made and I should have quoted it directly.

The phrase I was responding to was " ...it got me thinking that if the rest of the country thinks we have a great BP, we look like bigger choke artists than we already are".  First of all "choke" is a loaded term if there ever was one and maybe that's what happened and maybe not.  I think we're safe in assuming the pressure got to GR, but Baker walked 3 in 0.1 inning so did he choke or is he simply a bad pitcher?  I'm guessing it's the latter.  Flaherty walked 3 in 2.0 innings along with giving up 2 hits and an earned run.  He's a bad pitcher but he has post-season experience in 2019 and 2020.  Did he choke or simply revert to all-to-familiar mean?  And the same could be said for Webb. 

 

I'm not sure how "bad" Flaherty and Webb inherently are, but I get yr point abt Baker. I wd say the same thing re: Hyde: did he "choke" and panic into some bad decisions or were they reasonable moves that blew up because of lack of executionl--and, let us not forget, the Rangers' prowess as batters.