Should Mike Mussina’s number have been retired?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

This isn’t correct.  The Orioles increased their offer at the last minute, but did not come close to what the Yankees offered.   

I absolutely do not buy into any narrative that says Mussina was a turncoat.   He told the O’s what he wanted a year before he hit free agency, and it was very reasonable.   They didn’t give it to him (or come close at the time), so he went on the FA market and ended up getting much more than what he’d asked for from the O’s previously.   His departure is on Angelos and the O’s, period.   They treated him very poorly.   

That said, I’m fine with their choice not to retire his number.  

 

Yep.  All of this.  Calling him a traitor is over the top for me.

The only thing I felt was a little douchey about all of that is when Mussina said the Yankees players made him feel more wanted.  I remember him talking about Jeter calling him for example.  I can see why you would question Angelos but you were in the same locker room for years with those guys.  You. know how they felt and they didn't need to make a special call to make you feel special.

Other than that, I have zero issue with his decision.  He jumped off the titanic.

[Moose Milligan]

Yeah, 20 year old Moose Milligan would be calling him a traitor, turncoat, etc.  

40 year old Moose Milligan can't blame him for, as @Sports Guy said, jumping off the Titanic.  Maybe going to the Yankees was a "**** you" to Angelos, maybe it was just simply taking the most amount of money offered.  As someone who has long wanted to say "**** you" to Angelos and would sell out for making the most amount of money, I totally understand it.

On top of it, I don't think he cares if his number is retired or if he has a statue or not.  I'm sure he probably understood that if he went in with an Orioles hat on his HoF plaque, he'd get both.  But he went in with a blank hat, so it's not like he went in as a Yankee, either.   If he's comfortable with his decisions and how his career unfolded, I'm curious as to why a lot of fans aren't.

I also don't believe this is such a hotly debated topic if he wound up in some place like Cleveland, for example.  Just the fact that it's the Yankees makes people butthurt about it.  

[NashLumber]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

I didn’t want to derail the thread on Adley’s debut, but SG posted this tweet from Buster Olney:

What’s your view of this?   Personally, Mussina was one of my favorite players ever, and I did not blame him one bit when he left the team.   I strongly supported his election to the Hall of Fame and of course the Orioles Hall of Fame.   But with all that said, I’m not offended that the O’s chose not to retire his number.   He chose to leave, in the prime of his career.   If the O’s had retired his number, that would have been OK with me, but I’m also OK with their decision not to retire it.  

As to Olney’s tweet, I wonder how many Hall of Famers voluntarily left their original team after 10+ years and while still in their prime.   
 

I feel the same as you. I have not read the whole thread, but the one thing I've noticed about retired numbers and statue recipients is that they all had gained World Series rings as Orioles. Mussina did not have that second distinction or achievement. Not solely his fault as only the '96 and '97 O's got into the postseason. Am I wrong about the retired number part? I was only going from what I've seen of those numbers painted on the upper deck in left field. But I know that is true of the statue recipients, a ring AND an MLB HOF induction. 

[nevadaO]

1 minute ago, NashLumber said:

I feel the same as you. I have not read the whole thread, but the one thing I've noticed about retired numbers and statue recipients is that they all had gained World Series rings as Orioles. Mussina did not have that second distinction or achievement. Not solely his fault as only the '96 and '97 O's got into the postseason. Am I wrong about the retired number part? I was only going from what I've seen of those numbers painted on the upper deck in left field. But I know that is true of the statue recipients, a ring AND an MLB HOF induction. 

It's literally just the numbers of Orioles in the HoF as Orioles. 

There is no ring requirement or hardware requirement. If you go to the HoF as an Oriole your number gets retired.

[DrungoHazewood]

11 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, 20 year old Moose Milligan would be calling him a traitor, turncoat, etc.  

40 year old Moose Milligan can't blame him for, as @Sports Guy said, jumping off the Titanic.  Maybe going to the Yankees was a "**** you" to Angelos, maybe it was just simply taking the most amount of money offered.  As someone who has long wanted to say "**** you" to Angelos and would sell out for making the most amount of money, I totally understand it.

On top of it, I don't think he cares if his number is retired or if he has a statue or not.  I'm sure he probably understood that if he went in with an Orioles hat on his HoF plaque, he'd get both.  But he went in with a blank hat, so it's not like he went in as a Yankee, either.   If he's comfortable with his decisions and how his career unfolded, I'm curious as to why a lot of fans aren't.

I also don't believe this is such a hotly debated topic if he wound up in some place like Cleveland, for example.  Just the fact that it's the Yankees makes people butthurt about it.  

I agree with all of that.  30 year old Drungo had a newspaper clipping of an article calling Mussina a traitor tacked to my fridge.

50 year old Drungo doesn't blame anyone for wanting out of the late 90s/early 2000s Orioles.  This is a team that had 80-year-old Syd Thrift as the GM on purpose. The team that led the majors in payroll in 1998, and had the same payroll 10+ years later as everyone else doubled theirs. The team that fired Jon Miller and John Lowenstein. The team that seemed a lot more engaged in fighting the Nationals than doing what it took to field a competitive team.

My only real beef with Mussina was signing with the Yanks. If it had been the Dodgers or the Braves or the Cubs... fine, no problem at all.  But the Yanks was a little about money, and a lot about giving Angelos the middle finger. Not sure he thought through that he was also giving that finger to the O's fans who'd rooted like heck for him for a decade.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, nevadaO said:

Is he in the HoF? Yes.

Is he in the HoF as an Oriole? No.

= No retired number

Which we know is kind of random.  Frank had nearly twice the games and plate appearances with the Reds than the O's, won an MVP with the Reds, but gets an O's hat on his plaque in Cooperstown.  If the HOF had left his hat blank like the often do today does Frank not get a retired number or a statue?

[Moose Milligan]

5 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I agree with all of that.  30 year old Drungo had a newspaper clipping of an article calling Mussina a traitor tacked to my fridge.

50 year old Drungo doesn't blame anyone for wanting out of the late 90s/early 2000s Orioles.  This is a team that had 80-year-old Syd Thrift as the GM on purpose. The team that led the majors in payroll in 1998, and had the same payroll 10+ years later as everyone else doubled theirs. The team that fired Jon Miller and John Lowenstein. The team that seemed a lot more engaged in fighting the Nationals than doing what it took to field a competitive team.

My only real beef with Mussina was signing with the Yanks. If it had been the Dodgers or the Braves or the Cubs... fine, no problem at all.  But the Yanks was a little about money, and a lot about giving Angelos the middle finger. Not sure he thought through that he was also giving that finger to the O's fans who'd rooted like heck for him for a decade.

Wait, they fired Lowenstein too?  I'd not heard that.

I think Mussina had enough foresight to know that someday, O's fans everywhere would want to give Angelos the finger and that we'd understand.  Turns out, he was right.  

Anyway, Mussina had some great moments as an Oriole.  I loved watching him pitch.  How he decided to embark on the second half of his career was up to him but it doesn't take away from the joy I had watching him when he was here.

[crowmst3k!]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Murray also did not leave as a free agent, he was traded away by a stupid Front office and basically chased away by a ridiculous press.

Easily one of the worst things that the Orioles ever did.  

If the O's kept Murray, The 1989 squad would have probably made the playoffs.  

The O's would not have traded for Glenn Davis.  

The Orioles of the 90's would have had Pete Harnisch, Curt Schilling, and Mike Mussina heading into the '92-'97 stretch, which would have been a damn good rotation.  Having an outfield with Steve Finley alongside Brady Anderson would have been icing on the cake.  

I can definitely see one of those Orioles squads winning the World Series.  

Trading Murray was easily one of the stupidest moves, which led to a cascade of stupider moves and missed opportunities.  

[nevadaO]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Which we know is kind of random.  Frank had nearly twice the games and plate appearances with the Reds than the O's, won an MVP with the Reds, but gets an O's hat on his plaque in Cooperstown.  If the HOF had left his hat blank like the often do today does Frank not get a retired number or a statue?

Honestly? Probably not, no. 

And agreed, it is quite random. In the case of Frank though I think the HoF made the right choice given how his departure from Cincinnati went down.

I don't necessarily agree with the criteria but it's clear that's what they've done. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Wait, they fired Lowenstein too?  I'd not heard that.

I think Mussina had enough foresight to know that someday, O's fans everywhere would want to give Angelos the finger and that we'd understand.  Turns out, he was right.  

Anyway, Mussina had some great moments as an Oriole.  I loved watching him pitch.  How he decided to embark on the second half of his career was up to him but it doesn't take away from the joy I had watching him when he was here.

Yes they fired Lowenstein who (in my opinion) did a great job providing color commentary on HTS. Apparently Angelos didn't like Lownstein's quirky sense of humor so he was not brought back when his contract expired with HTS. 

Luckily we got Jim Palmer to eventually be the lead analyst on television, but there's no reason both of them couldn't have worked on the television side. 

[DrungoHazewood]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Wait, they fired Lowenstein too?  I'd not heard that.

I think Mussina had enough foresight to know that someday, O's fans everywhere would want to give Angelos the finger and that we'd understand.  Turns out, he was right.  

Anyway, Mussina had some great moments as an Oriole.  I loved watching him pitch.  How he decided to embark on the second half of his career was up to him but it doesn't take away from the joy I had watching him when he was here.

Completely by chance I saw Mussina's 1st and 100th MLB wins in person.  And I only get to a handful of games a year.  Lots of great memories of his time in Baltimore.

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Yes they fired Lowenstein who (in my opinion) did a great job providing color commentary on HTS. Apparently Angelos didn't like Lownstein's quirky sense of humor so he was not brought back when his contract expired with HTS. 

Luckily we got Jim Palmer to eventually be the lead analyst on television, but there's no reason both of them couldn't have worked on the television side. 

Proctor and Lowenstein were fantastic together.  Lowenstein was hilarious.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, nevadaO said:

Honestly? Probably not, no. 

And agreed, it is quite random. In the case of Frank though I think the HoF made the right choice given how his departure from Cincinnati went down.

I don't necessarily agree with the criteria but it's clear that's what they've done. 

And like all unwritten rules, it's ironclad until they have some reason to ignore it.  If the 2028 Orioles sign... I don't know... Juan Soto and he's the key to a couple great World Series teams, but he goes into the Hall as a Nat they'd have a hard time not retiring his number.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Proctor and Lowenstein were fantastic together.  Lowenstein was hilarious.

 

But he was a wierdo.  And when you're a 1950s guy like ol' Pete you can't abide by weirdos.  Might be a commie for all we know.  Baseball announcing is for straight-laced, clean-shaven Americans.

[nevadaO]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

And like all unwritten rules, it's ironclad until they have some reason to ignore it.  If the 2028 Orioles sign... I don't know... Juan Soto and he's the key to a couple great World Series teams, but he goes into the Hall as a Nat they'd have a hard time not retiring his number.

Sure, but is Moose worthy of changing the rules? 

#35 will be retired eventually, when Adley goes in to the HoF as an Oriole after multiple World Series victories!