Odor and .200

[Fiver6565]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Well not the way he's been hitting the last few years. I think Odor is a great teammate, but he's a below replacement level player at this stage in his career.

I can't imagine many players with careers as long (and by and large successful) as Odor has had, are coaches before they are 30. I certainly can't think of a single example.

[Frobby]

46 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

I agree with the hesitancy of replacing the horses that put us in this position so far this year (benching Odor or Urias).  But I also don't question playing Gunnar because the team could use a spark on offense. 

I'm not one who generally second guesses.  They have built a lot of redundancy and have tried a number of things to get peak performance out of players with a holistic view.  Some will work.  Some won't.

But I do question playing Gunnar at 2B.  He has very likely played has only played on the left side of the IF his entire life until the last week of AAA.  IMO Elias/Hyde/staff obviously DO know what they are doing.  But I think the carrot of quick wins and a change in focus at the trade deadline caused some short-sighted decisions.  My take is that it was an out of character attempt to be flexible and still get Gunnar's bat in the lineup consistently to see what lineup played up.  

My view is, the two plays Gunnar messed up just as easily could have occurred at SS.  The first was an attempted DP where he took a throw and lost the ball transferring it to his throwing hand.  Could easily have happened if he was taking a throw at SS.   The second was a grounder where he was trying to pick it up quickly to make an underhand lob to SS to start at DP.   Could just have easily happened if he was making a lob to the 2B to start a DP.  You can speculate that it happened because he’s not used to playing 2B, but I can just as easily argue that it was just one of those things.   Let’s not forget, Gunnar made two spectacular plays at 2B in the first inning of that game, far more difficult than the routine ones he messed up.  And Urias has played extremely well at 3B over the last week, making numerous excellent plays.  Who’s to say if Gunnar would have made them?

[CharmCityHokie]

24 minutes ago, Frobby said:

My view is, the two plays Gunnar messed up just as easily could have occurred at SS.  The first was an attempted DP where he took a throw and lost the ball transferring it to his throwing hand.  Could easily have happened if he was taking a throw at SS.   The second was a grounder where he was trying to pick it up quickly to make an underhand lob to SS to start at DP.   Could just have easily happened if he was making a lob to the 2B to start a DP.  You can speculate that it happened because he’s not used to playing 2B, but I can just as easily argue that it was just one of those things.   Let’s not forget, Gunnar made two spectacular plays at 2B in the first inning of that game, far more difficult than the routine ones he messed up.  And Urias has played extremely well at 3B over the last week, making numerous excellent plays.  Who’s to say if Gunnar would have made them?

Urias has been playing a very strong 3B this year. I know defensive metrics are flawed but FanGraphs has his as a top-5 MLB defender at 3B this year (I know about 20% of his innings have come at 2B and SS). He's been very good.

[Jammer7]

2 hours ago, btdart20 said:

It's fair to put those Gunnar E's on the front office.  I highly doubt he's played much 2B ever in his life until the last week or so of AAA.  The angles/approaches/etc. are part of the muscle memory that are developed over reps.  Just a dumb decision seeking an upgrade at 2B (which they obviously were).  

That said, there's already a player on the ML roster who has experience at 2B AND nearly .100 higher OPS than Odor.  Urias.  Maybe (maybe not) a half-step back defensively, but better offensively.  (The jab is irreplaceable, but its R-value is debatable!)  How much of a 'winning spirit' knock will it be to the team?  In spite of all the quants and math-whizzery in the FO, it seems they value the mystery behind that question.

That said part II, this team is a joy this year!  Odor has been a big piece of the fun.  

That said part III, when do we finish the chapter titled "Wafting Odor's Swag" chapter of the "Rebuild" and turn the page to "Get Some Dubs!"?  I would have marked this transition when Elias stated decisions will look different going forward.

Agreed on Urias, but he is one of the best 3B in MLB today. He is first in DRS right now in all MLB. Not that I am big on that, or any defensive metric, but he has been a very good 3B according to these eyes. I am a bit hesitant to move him to play 2B everyday until next season. 

I don’t throw bricks at Elias or Hyde often, but putting Gunnar at 2B was a bad call. Odor will go at the end of this season, probably right at .200. These guys earned this shot. I say let them finish it out. Gunnar should play some at 3B and SS to let the main starters rest. He is a stud, and the future. Any positive reps he gets will help. Negative reps, sometimes those cause negative effects as well. I am sure he felt like he let the guys down. Everyone makes errors, those were just big and led to runs each time.

Odor plays a very solid MLB 2B and shifts differently than most 2B. He is flawed, sure. But calling him a “winning spirit guy” dismisses what he actually brings on the positive side as some anecdotal garbage. First, everyone here wanted to see Vavra there. His defense is just not good enough. Then, everyone thinks Gunnar should be there. He kicks a few that really hurt. Both are better hitters, but both cost us runs that hurt on defense. If you allow more runs than you produce, and your pitchers have to throw more pitches, a lot more thanks to unmade plays, that adds up. Meanwhile, the guy who was there everyday and is quite responsible for getting us here to contention is the guy so many loathe. This isn’t fantasy baseball, defense and toughness and the ability to grind matter. Ask an actual major league player, they know.

I know this is an unpopular take. But if you know the game, you know that what he has brought to this point is valuable beyond any numbers other than the W column. He should not be back next year, as I think his value as a teacher is complete. And now, those offensive stats are pretty bad. He is still working counts fairly well, with a lot of swing and miss. He is the guy the other teammates want there. Without him, you could tell they were a different team. Deflated. Start 2023 with someone else there, but for now, I keep him right there at 2B. Reward him, and the rest of the team by leaving him in there. It’s what they want. You can see it, if you care to look.

BT, all of this is not directed at you. I respect your opinions and appreciate your thoughts here. 

[Jammer7]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

My view is, the two plays Gunnar messed up just as easily could have occurred at SS.  The first was an attempted DP where he took a throw and lost the ball transferring it to his throwing hand.  Could easily have happened if he was taking a throw at SS.   The second was a grounder where he was trying to pick it up quickly to make an underhand lob to SS to start at DP.   Could just have easily happened if he was making a lob to the 2B to start a DP.  You can speculate that it happened because he’s not used to playing 2B, but I can just as easily argue that it was just one of those things.   Let’s not forget, Gunnar made two spectacular plays at 2B in the first inning of that game, far more difficult than the routine ones he messed up.  And Urias has played extremely well at 3B over the last week, making numerous excellent plays.  Who’s to say if Gunnar would have made them?

Gunnar is fantastic, but young inexperienced and untested in big games, especially at the MLB level. He has been knocked as being occasionally inconsistent. He probably puts a lot of pressure on himself. But, it is what it is. If you are actually trying to win, you put guys that turn outs into outs on the field. Pitchers had to throw more pitches and runs scored. Felt bad for the kid, and certainly not a knock on his future. 

[Jammer7]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I guess you are one vote for Odor over .200?

Oh no, not willing to die on that hill.  

[Frobby]

After gathering ten hits in the last five games, Roogie has his BA up to .211.   It would be difficult for him to fall below .200 before the season ends — right now he’d have to 0 for 22 to get to .200, and he probably won’t get many more than 22 PA in the final 8 games.   

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

After gathering ten hits in the last five games, Roogie has his BA up to .211.   It would be difficult for him to fall below .200 before the season ends — right now he’d have to 0 for 22 to get to .200, and he probably won’t get many more than 22 PA in the final 8 games.   

Hitting better but playing his worst baseball of the year lately.  From admiring his game tying single the other day, 2 costly errors last night, and the force play on Refsnyder at 2B where if he had simply been heads up he could have put the tag on him and gotten an out when he Refsnyder came off the bag.  I’ve defended Odor but leadership starts by example and his example hasn’t been all that great, especially lately.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Hitting better but playing his worst baseball of the year lately.  From admiring his game tying single the other day, 2 costly errors last night, and the force play on Refsnyder at 2B where if he had simply been heads up he could have put the tag on him and gotten an out when he Refsnyder came off the bag.  I’ve defended Odor but leadership starts by example and his example hasn’t been all that great, especially lately.

I can’t disagree.  As I said, it seems like any game where he gets a big hit, he also does something bad that kind of neutralizes it.   I do think the first error last night was a tough play (backhand smash up the middle that hit off his glove), and Mountcastle’s scoop attempt on the bounced DP throw was bad.  But, bottom line is Roogie didn’t make the plays.

But anyway, this thread is about whether Roogie would hit over .200, and it appears he probably will at this point.  He swing looks a little more flat and controlled right now.