Who is the best defensive SS? Gunnar, Ortiz or Holliday?

[Aristotelian]

Have people proclaiming Holliday's defense the worst actually watched him play on a regular basis? 

[Billy F-Face3]

12 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Have people proclaiming Holliday's defense the worst actually watched him play on a regular basis? 

2:51 time stamp. Same thing was happening in Spring Training more often than we'd like.

https://youtu.be/XTzHH83G-gM

[Billy F-Face3]

Also, no one is saying Jackson's defense is the worst. We're just saying that the other players we were asked to list, field the position better at this point in time.

[sportsfan8703]

5 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

2:51 time stamp. Same thing was happening in Spring Training more often than we'd like.

https://youtu.be/XTzHH83G-gM

Thanks for posting this.  That's probably a play where he just needs to glove the ball first, then decide if he should just put it in is pocket.  He's also one year removed from HS.  So there's room for improvement.  He could be 2B in September with Gunnar at SS, and Westburg at 3B.  

[Aristotelian]

4 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

2:51 time stamp. Same thing was happening in Spring Training more often than we'd like.

https://youtu.be/XTzHH83G-gM

So we're going off eye test from a couple of highlight videos. Might want to just keep that in perspective. My list at this point in time is Gunnar 1, Holliday and Ortiz TBD.

[Billy F-Face3]

14 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Thanks for posting this.  That's probably a play where he just needs to glove the ball first, then decide if he should just put it in is pocket.  He's also one year removed from HS.  So there's room for improvement.  He could be 2B in September with Gunnar at SS, and Westburg at 3B.  

You're welcome. Glad to be able to provide some value to the community.

[Billy F-Face3]

14 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

So we're going off eye test from a couple of highlight videos. Might want to just keep that in perspective. My list at this point in time is Gunnar 1, Holliday and Ortiz TBD.

Holliday has a fielding percentage of .964 at shortstop for the 2023 season, and that's only on A ball. Every single one of the pther players we are discussing has a higher fielding percentage for the 2023 seasom at shortstop in either the MLB level or in the case of Westburg, AAA level. 

Be patient. 

[sportsfan8703]

10 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Holliday has a fielding percentage of .964 at shortstop for the 2023 season, and that's only on A ball. Every single one of the pther players we are discussing has a higher fielding percentage for the 2023 seasom at shortstop in either the MLB level or in the case of Westburg, AAA level. 

Be patient. 

Good point.  Is the defense good enough for 2B as a possible playoff option though?  I think that is something that will be explored if Holliday tears it up.  Not to get off topic, but another teenager, Basallo is in the same boat.  The bat is real advanced.  

[banks703]

29 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Have people proclaiming Holliday's defense the worst actually watched him play on a regular basis? 

I've watched a considerable amount of his film. If it's on the internet, I've likely seen it.

I'm not comfortable looking at this topic in the context of who is the worst? because they're all supremely talented and it's not necessarily fair to compare Holliday as a 19 year old to Jorge as a grown man who plays GG caliber defense. 

With the above mentioned, I do see some defensive shortcomings with JH that I am not sure that he will completely outgrow, notably the arm and I argue that he's not particularly rangy for SS in comparison to Mateo, Gunnar and Joey but instincts improve with reps which will help a lot with range. Even though he has good straight-line speed, the quickness and reactions are not quite what they are with Gunnar, Jorge and Joey though he does have good hands. I see him better suited for 2B. If he sticks at SS I don't think that he'll necessarily be a detriment to the defense. I just personally feel that there are better options currently in the system in Joey and Gunnar. Is JH going to improve? Absolutely. Look at how far Gunnar improved from 19-21. JH has the pedigree and is already in Bowie as a 19 year old. I think that it's clear that they are going to give him every opportunity to play himself off of the position. Oviously they know more than me and I trust them and their process.  

It is worth noting though; them taking EBJ in the draft this past weekend should be an indicator of how much the organization values defense up the middle. If Gunnar is in the system and he's a better defensive player at SS, they're not going to move Gunnar to another position for JH. I do believe that Gunnar is bound for third so I think that point is moot and but Joey is appreciably better than Gunnar at SS. So we can take that for whatever it's worth. 

[Sports Guy]

25 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Holliday has a fielding percentage of .964 at shortstop for the 2023 season, and that's only on A ball. Every single one of the pther players we are discussing has a higher fielding percentage for the 2023 seasom at shortstop in either the MLB level or in the case of Westburg, AAA level. 

Be patient. 

Fielding% means nothing, especially in the minors where the fields aren’t always as good.

[Sports Guy]

It wasn’t that long ago where it was said Gunnar wouldn’t be able to stay at SS.

Elias drafted Holliday with the thought he is a SS. Every scouting report says he’s a SS. When drafted, everyone agreed he was a SS.

We may be an organization that just so happens to have guys that can field better than him at SS but it’s highly unlikely to matter imo. They drafted him to be a SS and he is their SS of the future. 
 

Maybe if Ortiz gets a real chance and completely blows them away and he hits, maybe that changes but I think it’s unlikely.

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It wasn’t that long ago where it was said Gunnar wouldn’t be able to stay at SS.

Elias drafted Holliday with the thought he is a SS. Every scouting report says he’s a SS. When drafted, everyone agreed he was a SS.

We may be an organization that just so happens to have guys that can field better than him at SS but it’s highly unlikely to matter imo. They drafted him to be a SS and he is their SS of the future. 
 

Maybe if Ortiz gets a real chance and completely blows them away and he hits, maybe that changes but I think it’s unlikely.

This is just dumb saying they drafted Holliday as a SS and therefore he’s the SS of the future.   The future infield will be determined by what is the best setup for the team at the ML level.  From what I can see on Fangraphs, Henderson is capable of having a Mateo like 2022 defensive season over a full season.  He moves well, not for a big man.  He just moves well, has great footwork and the best infield arm in the organization.   Holliday is guaranteed nothing.   I haven’t seen enough of Holliday to say anything definitive about his defense but just because he was drafted as a SS doesn’t mean he’s the SS of the future.

[Bemorewins]

Here’s the thing for me - Whether or not Holliday plays SS and Henderson plays 3B or Holliday plays 2B and Henderson plays SS doesn’t make that much difference to me. 

As long as they are giving us + value from an offensive perspective for that position plus manning that defensive position in a capable/good way, I’m okay with whatever alignment. 

If Westburg can play a good 3B (I see no reason that he cannot) and Henderson can man SS at least for the next few years (I see no reason that he cannot), then if Holliday has to slide over to 2B he will give us very good offensive value for that position. Given that there aren’t that many good 2B in the AL, this may give him the best opportunity to make multiple All-star teams (something that could be attractive to him if a position change is required).

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

Here’s the thing for me - Whether or not Holliday plays SS and Henderson plays 3B or Holliday plays 2B and Henderson plays SS doesn’t make that much difference to me. 

As long as they are giving us + value from an offensive perspective for that position plus manning that defensive position in a capable/good way, I’m okay with whatever alignment. 

If Westburg can play a good 3B (I see no reason that he cannot) and Henderson can man SS at least for the next few years (I see no reason that he cannot), then if Holliday has to slide over to 2B he will give us very good offensive value for that position. Given that there aren’t that many good 2B in the AL, this may give him the best opportunity to make multiple All-star teams (something that could be attractive to him if a position change is required).

You’re last sentence makes it sound like we have to “ask” Holliday if its okay if someone else is the SS.

[banks703]

39 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

As long as they are giving us + value from an offensive perspective for that position plus manning that defensive position in a capable/good way, I’m okay with whatever alignment. 

This is my feeling. If Gunnar (who is one of the cornerstones of the franchise) continues to play well defensively at SS and they move Ortiz because of Gunnar's ability to stick there, the org is NOT going to move Gunnar for a lesser defensive player. It's just not going to happen. This isn't the Yankees letting (the face of their franchise) Jeter stick at SS over A-Rod, who was the appreciably better player.

Could Holliday mature and become an even better player than Gunnar? Sure, that's possible however I do not see that happening. Holliday was getting reps at 2B before the promotion to Bowie, where he is likely to play pretty exclusively at SS given the lack of talent at the position there. I maintain that Holliday ends up at 2B in Baltimore and I can definitely see  them promote his bat for a playoff run, though not likely this year. 

Internally could they be deciding between Gunnar and JH and move one for pitching? Imagine the return that they could receive for either of them. I don't think that they have to do that and feel that they shouldn't but they certainly could do it. I don't feel that they have to choose between a soon to be 20 year old, current number 1 prospect and a recently turned 22 year old, previous number 1 prospect. 

I actually think that JW is the guy who will get moved. I think that they promoted him to showcase his ability to play at the ML level, which he is doing. The power numbers aren't there yet but they'll come soon enough. I do wonder if they move on from JW what impact that could have on the Cowser/Gunnar dynamic. Those three seem to be pretty close. 

They have an embarrassment of riches in IF talent right now. There are certainly worse problems to have than to have to figure out what to do with half a dozen top 60 or so prospects.