DL Hall's future?? Reliever or Starter?

[Sports Guy]

45 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Elias tried to add a starter last year that was better than Gibson and could not get it done.    The best plan is to add a starter that can pitch 30 starts and 150 inning with an ERA under 4.00.  That is what I think Elias goes into the off season looking for.   Can he find him in trade?  Are they willing to spend on the FA market.   That is TBD.

Wells and Hall  as starters is Plan B now that Bautista is not in the pen IMO.   They can both help the pen be stronger if that is the way it turns out.

But that isn’t what you have been saying. Why the change of heart?

[Tony-OH]

15 hours ago, Malike said:

I don't disagree he probably ends up in the pen, but I do believe they are going to let him fail as a starter next year before they make that move.

How many times does he need to fail as a starter before you guys accept that he's not a starter? 

It boggles my mind that I've built the case several times, yet time after time, some of you still think he needs to fail again. How many is too many? 

If the team was rebuilding maybe, but they're not, they're contenders and his best role at the major league level is as a reliever. 

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

Cole Irvin will start the year as the long man in the bullpen but he also slots into that depth chart above McDermott and Povich, at least to start the season. 

Yep, definitely could have added him in as a potential depth starter. He's got a better chance of being a starter than Hall does.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

How many times does he need to fail as a starter before you guys accept that he's not a starter? 

It boggles my mind that I've built the case several times, yet time after time, some of you still think he needs to fail again. How many is too many? 

If the team was rebuilding maybe, but they're not, they're contenders and his best role at the major league level is as a reliever. 

Enough guys over the years had the light come on late enough that I still think the reward of 100 more innings is worth it.

If he hadn't been hyped as a plus athlete maybe I'd have given up by now.

 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Hall is an often injury young pitcher with great stuff.   Its a poor plan that makes him a starter in 2023 and expect him to make 30 starts and pitch 150 innings.   His most innings was in 2018 in the low minors when he pitched 94.1 innings.

He only pitched 31.2 innings in 2021 because of an elbow injury.  In 2023 he was limited to 71.1  innings with a back problem.  

Stretching him out in ST in fine in case one of the starters is injured but Hall needs to pitch a full year in the O's pen to show he can stay healthy.  If he can do that he could be considered as a starter in 2025.

Wells has the same problem.  You can't count on him for 30 starts and 150 inning either.   The best plan has both of them in pen and the O's acquiring a starter on a one year contract that  is at least as good as Kremer.   They have shown they will spend 10m on a starter.   And they have Norby, Stowers and Urias to trade.   I think Elias can figure this out.

If Elias fails to get a quality starter on terms he likes he could have  Hall, Wells, Irvin, McDermott combine to be the 5th starter and add relievers this off season.  But that is probably not the preferred plan going in the off season IMO.

I agree with everything except stretching him out. He should be prepared to be used often and for up to two innings a stint. Stretching him out for a role that he's not suited for is a waste of spring training preparation time. 

 

[Malike]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

How many times does he need to fail as a starter before you guys accept that he's not a starter? 

It boggles my mind that I've built the case several times, yet time after time, some of you still think he needs to fail again. How many is too many? 

If the team was rebuilding maybe, but they're not, they're contenders and his best role at the major league level is as a reliever. 

I mean, he didn't even get a legitimate chance this season with the back stuff. It's not like we're talking about a 29-year-old who is giving it his last hurrah. This was his age 24 season.

[Malike]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Enough guys over the years had the light come on late enough that I still think the reward of 100 more innings is worth it.

If he hadn't been hyped as a plus athlete maybe I'd have given up by now.

 

I can't believe we're talking about trying to salvage a guy who turned 25 less than a month ago lol. It's not like we're looking for a late bloomer here.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

How many times does he need to fail as a starter before you guys accept that he's not a starter? 

It boggles my mind that I've built the case several times, yet time after time, some of you still think he needs to fail again. How many is too many? 

If the team was rebuilding maybe, but they're not, they're contenders and his best role at the major league level is as a reliever. 

Why are you getting on posters who talk about the possibility of Hall starting when the organization talks about just that?    I think you’re probably right about Hall but Bradish is a good example of someone who looked like a reliever and got better.   Either way, it doesn’t seem like the organization has given up on him as a starter.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Malike said:

I can't believe we're talking about trying to salvage a guy who turned 25 less than a month ago lol. It's not like we're looking for a late bloomer here.

I guess some folks view relievers as being closer to value to starters than I do?

A hundred more innings, to me, is a lot more valuable.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Enough guys over the years had the light come on late enough that I still think the reward of 100 more innings is worth it.

If he hadn't been hyped as a plus athlete maybe I'd have given up by now.

 

Show me a guy with Hall's lack of innings or the ability to go deep in the game, even in the minors, who suddenly a light when off and he became a consistent starter able to get give 6 innings consistently. 

On top of it, everyone should go look at his statcast info. His slider is the only pitch he has with plus movement. His fastball is plus because of the velocity. But the number one issues is what it always has been. He takes too many pitches to get through innings. 

He's a reliever and "trying him one more time" is literally the definition of insanity. He's an effective major league reliever with the upside of being a back end guy in the pen. I could see him potentially get a chance to close at some point next year if he's pitching well and the Orioles don't go out and get a true closer (which they need) this offseason. 

[wildcard]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But that isn’t what you have been saying. Why the change of heart?

I think it a combination of things.    Winning 101 games and the division sets the sights higher. The focus is winning the World Series next.   

Also losing Bautista leaves a hole in the back end of the pen where Hall and Well will make them stronger.

I still don't think the O's are willing to go a 3 to 5 year contract for big money for a starter.   And I doubt they trade a key player.    Its going to be Elias, Holt and Sig trying to find a starter that they think they can improve IMO.

[Tony-OH]

7 minutes ago, Malike said:

I can't believe we're talking about trying to salvage a guy who turned 25 less than a month ago lol. It's not like we're looking for a late bloomer here.

It's been clear since his Bowie days that he needs to be in the pen. So you can waste time and preparation by trying to put a square peg into a round hole, and the Orioles may do that next spring just to placate Hall, but he should be expected and prepared to fill a part of the major league bullpen next year.

In fact, his injury history is just another reason not to even think about putting a heavy workload onto him. 

You guys can hope and pray for a miracle, while I'll go with what his stats, health history, and command tell me what his best role should be.

[wildcard]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I agree with everything except stretching him out. He should be prepared to be used often and for up to two innings a stint. Stretching him out for a role that he's not suited for is a waste of spring training preparation time. 

 

Its a waste of ST preparation until a couple of starters go down with injuries and then its not.

Edited October 12, 2023 by wildcard

[Tony-OH]

5 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Why are you getting on posters who talk about the possibility of Hall starting when the organization talks about just that?    I think you’re probably right about Hall but Bradish is a good example of someone who looked like a reliever and got better.   Either way, it doesn’t seem like the organization has given up on him as a starter.

Because I don't think the organization really think that and it's more about placating Hall. If they do really think that, then I will die on the hill that they are absolutely wrong and they will either cause another injury or waste spring training preparation time doing the wrong thing.

In his 11 starts last year in Norfolk, he went 5 or more innings just three times, 6 just once. In his only 3 inning appearance with the Orioles last year it took him 70 pitches to get through 3 innings. 

I actually find it amazing that I have constantly bring this stuff up. On top of it all, we need an arm like his in the bullpen and when have plenty of starting candidates with more experience already on the roster and I expect the Orioles to add a starter again this offseason. 

HE IS NOT GOING TO BE A GOOD CONSISTENT MAJOR LEAGUE STARTER. I'll die on this hill no matter how many chances some of you thinks he should get. 

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Show me a guy with Hall's lack of innings or the ability to go deep in the game, even in the minors, who suddenly a light when off and he became a consistent starter able to get give 6 innings consistently. 

On top of it, everyone should go look at his statcast info. His slider is the only pitch he has with plus movement. His fastball is plus because of the velocity. But the number one issues is what it always has been. He takes too many pitches to get through innings. 

He's a reliever and "trying him one more time" is literally the definition of insanity. He's an effective major league reliever with the upside of being a back end guy in the pen. I could see him potentially get a chance to close at some point next year if he's pitching well and the Orioles don't go out and get a true closer (which they need) this offseason. 

The obvious name to go to is Randy Johnson who had a walk rate of 14.5% his first five years in the majors and didn't make his MLB debut until he was 24.

He could go deeper than Hall but that was because they let guys throw more pitches back then.

Am I trying to say Hall has HoF talent?  of course not but that is an example of a 29 year old cutting his walk rate from 6.2 to 3.5.