Webb's run allowed was unearned last night despite the ghost runner being eliminated

[Tony-OH]

Seems strange to me that Webb's run allowed last night was unearned.

I get that ghost runners do not count as earned runs, but the ghost runner was cut down on the fielder's choice by Langeliers after the run down. Langeliers reached base, but it was on a fielder's choice that would have been a 5-3. 

So I'm guessing that because the ghost runner contributed to Langeliers reaching, it counts as an unearned run? I'll be honest, I just thought if the ghost runner was eliminated, then the run becomes earned, but apparently not.

[spleen1015]

I guess it's gotta be ghost runner related since there weren't any errors. It does seem strange.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Seems strange to me that Webb's run allowed last night was unearned.

I get that ghost runners do not count as earned runs, but the ghost runner was cut down on the fielder's choice by Langeliers after the run down. Langeliers reached base, but it was on a fielder's choice that would have been a 5-3. 

So I'm guessing that because the ghost runner contributed to Langeliers reaching, it counts as an unearned run? I'll be honest, I just thought if the ghost runner was eliminated, then the run becomes earned, but apparently not.

Langeliers would never have reached if there was no ghost runner.  Seems logical to me.

[sportsfan8703]

The Fielder’s Choice rule. 

I guess technically on wild pitch we could’ve gotten the guy out at 3rd and chose to throw home, thus swapping the ghost runner label to the other base runner. Same rule if it was 1st and 2nd and we got the lead runner out on at 3rd.

Just my best guess. 

Edited April 27 by sportsfan8703

[Tony-OH]

16 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Langeliers would never have reached if there was no ghost runner.  Seems logical to me.

So I looked up the rule book and I can't find anything that says this is the case. Maybe I'm missing it because the rules for unearned runs can be convuluted to say the least.

"For purposes of calculating earned runs under Rule 9.16, the runner who begins an inning on second base pursuant to this rule shall be deemed to be a runner who has reached second base because of a fielding error, but no error shall be charged to the opposing team or to any player. For purposes of Rule 9.02, the Official Scorer shall keep records of the number of times each batter and runner is placed at second base in accordance with this rule."

In the rulebook under unearned runs it states, "An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the Official Scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls. (a)  The Official Scorer shall charge an earned run against a pitcher every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder’s choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike that permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance. A wild pitch is solely the pitcher’s fault and shall contribute to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk."

I don't see where it states a batter that reaches on a fielder's choice due to a runner being being on due to error. 

 

[SteveA]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

So I looked up the rule book and I can't find anything that says this is the case. Maybe I'm missing it because the rules for unearned runs can be convuluted to say the least.

"For purposes of calculating earned runs under Rule 9.16, the runner who begins an inning on second base pursuant to this rule shall be deemed to be a runner who has reached second base because of a fielding error, but no error shall be charged to the opposing team or to any player. For purposes of Rule 9.02, the Official Scorer shall keep records of the number of times each batter and runner is placed at second base in accordance with this rule."

In the rulebook under unearned runs it states, "An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the Official Scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls. (a)  The Official Scorer shall charge an earned run against a pitcher every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder’s choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike that permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance. A wild pitch is solely the pitcher’s fault and shall contribute to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk."

I don't see where it states a batter that reaches on a fielder's choice due to a runner being being on due to error. 

 

If you "reconstruct the inning without the errors" that means you replay the inning without the ghost runner.   So on that ground ball that got the runner at the plate, you now assume Langeliers would have been thrown out at first.

[Aristotelian]

If the ghost runner had reached via error, you would have had groundout, groundout, double, K. 

[Morgan423]

Makes sense to me.  With no ghost runner, Langeliers should never have reached, because there'd have been zero reason not to go straight to first on his ground ball. 

Like @SteveA said, the rules tell the scorer to reconstruct the inning without errors.  As "no error shall be charged to the opposing team or to any player," when you reconstruct, you don't include the ghost runner, because he was placed, and he didn't reach base as the result of a play (as in, no error was changed to the defensive team or any defensive player).

Edited April 27 by Morgan423

[Tony-OH]

31 minutes ago, SteveA said:

If you "reconstruct the inning without the errors" that means you replay the inning without the ghost runner.   So on that ground ball that got the runner at the plate, you now assume Langeliers would have been thrown out at first.

 

11 minutes ago, Morgan423 said:

Makes sense to me.  With no ghost runner, Langeliers should never have reached, because there'd have been zero reason not to go straight to first on his ground ball. 

Like @SteveA said, the rules tell the scorer to reconstruct the inning without errors.  As "no error shall be charged to the opposing team or to any player," when you reconstruct, you don't include the ghost runner, because he was placed, and he didn't reach base as the result of a play (as in, no error was changed to the defensive team or any defensive player).

The reconstruct the inning without the error is the key. Thanks.

[Frobby]

It makes sense, because the runner on 1st would have been thrown out except for the fielder’s choice to get the zombie runner.  Still, nothing changes the fact that the pitch to Rooker was an awful pitch.  

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

So I looked up the rule book and I can't find anything that says this is the case. Maybe I'm missing it because the rules for unearned runs can be convuluted to say the least.

"For purposes of calculating earned runs under Rule 9.16, the runner who begins an inning on second base pursuant to this rule shall be deemed to be a runner who has reached second base because of a fielding error, but no error shall be charged to the opposing team or to any player. For purposes of Rule 9.02, the Official Scorer shall keep records of the number of times each batter and runner is placed at second base in accordance with this rule."

In the rulebook under unearned runs it states, "An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the Official Scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls. (a)  The Official Scorer shall charge an earned run against a pitcher every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder’s choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike that permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance. A wild pitch is solely the pitcher’s fault and shall contribute to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk."

I don't see where it states a batter that reaches on a fielder's choice due to a runner being being on due to error. 

 

giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play