Timing and thoughts on Cowser's hustle play

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, terpoh said:

Yea, could definitely be true. Amazing play no matter how you break it down and gave us the opportunity to win the game. 

It was awesome. I think the slide is why he was safe, he just mistimed it slightly. If he runs through I think he’s probably out. 

One of the few times sliding into first was a good idea. 

[Aristotelian]

By the way, is there a reason why MLB doesn't have an extra bag adjoining first base like many little league fields? Just seems like a safety issue that doesn't add anything to the game.

[RZNJ]

20 minutes ago, terpoh said:

To my untrained eye I actually feel like the slide is why he was safe and he wouldnt have been safe if he ran through.

1.  Cowser would have gotten to the bag quicker by not sliding.

2. Singleton already couldn’t get to the bag before Cowser.   What part of Cowser is he going to tag before Cowsers foot comes down on the bag.

3. As soon as Cowser’s body hits the ground he’s slowing up considerably as he reaches for the bag with his hand.  No doubt, his foot would have touched the bag sooner than his hand if had just run through the bag.

Having said all that, maybe he thought Valdez was still close enough to get a toss from Singleton.   Maybe he was afraid of a potential collision with Singleton.   Maybe he believes the head first slide gets him there faster.   Maybe it does or is at least almost the same as staying upright if he manages to touch the base with his hand before his hold body is on the ground.

Edited August 25 by RZNJ

[Too Tall]

Now and then a play defines a game. This was such a play. The Hustling Cow did it. Just running through the bag would not have been the same. The look on his face when he knew he was safe - PRICELESS!

[Fiver6565]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

1.  Cowser would have gotten to the bag quicker by not sliding.

2. Singleton already couldn’t get to the bag before Cowser.   What part of Cowser is he going to tag before Cowsers foot comes down on the bag.

3. As soon as Cowser’s body hits the ground he’s slowing up considerably as he reaches for the bag with his hand.  No doubt, his foot would have touched the bag sooner than his hand if had just run through the bag.

Having said all that, maybe he thought Valdez was still close enough to get a toss from Singleton.   Maybe he was afraid of a potential collision with Singleton.   Maybe he believes the head first slide gets him there faster.   Maybe it does or is at least almost the same as staying upright if he manages to touch the base with his hand before his hold body is on the ground.

I can’t find it right now but he was quoted after the game that avoiding a collision with Singleton was why he dove. I’m glad he did, that could have been ugly for one or both players. 

[harp6]

I also liked Palmer's commentary on Friday, when Abreu tried to throw Cowser out at third base.  Again, Cowser's hustle is what made things happen by quickly getting back to the bag to keep the bases loaded. Palmer was very emphatic about the poor decision by Abreu.  Palmer's main point is that the Astros had a 3 run lead in the eighth.  Abreu should have gave up the run and thrown to second base to set up the double play.  Then the Astros would have a 5-3 lead, but would have empty bases and two outs.  At that point the outs were more important than the one run.  

[RZNJ]

Weird thought of mine.   Two outs, runners on first and third.   Grounder to left side.   If I’m the runner on first, I don’t slide into second.   I don’t slow down and run right through 2B.   The 2B can easily tag me out as I’ve overrun the base.  But, if I’ve beaten the force play it allows the runner on 3B to score before the 3rd out.   Waiting to see it happen one day.   

[SemperFi]

It's slower to slide into first is one of baeball's "old wives tales", the benefit you get is extending your arm roughly 3 feet, the negative is that friction slows you, if executed properly the difference is neglible.  Excerpt from Statcast on Gardner who used to slide into first often:

"Now if we just left it there, you might think we've proven that sliding into first is indisputably slower and no one could argue against that. 
So let's acknowledge that. So far, we've been focusing on Sprint Speed, which clearly drops when you dive, and we've talked about time, in seconds, of home-to-first. But really, the first 80 feet or so ought to be identical no matter whether you slide or not. Would we find a difference if we look at the final 10 feet for these selected plays? If sliding is faster, that's where it would present itself.

The answer is … inconclusive, perhaps. Looking at our five plays, Gardner got to the 80-feet mark in as little as 3.29 seconds and as high as 3.76 seconds. Over the last 10 feet, he got there in .34 and .35 seconds running, and .36, .36 and .37 seconds sliding.
If we repeat it using 85 feet rather than 80 feet, it's about the same. Over the last five feet, Gardner needed .18 and .18 running, and .18, .19 and .20 seconds sliding. It's not much of a difference. Or put another way, if he ran the final 10 feet at 30 feet per second, he'd need an estimated .33 seconds, which is what he showed in our pair of "running through" plays. If Gardner slid the final seven feet at 21 feet per second (seven, rather than 10, assuming he can reach out with his arms for the final three), that would be ... an identical .33 seconds."

[foxfield]

My thoughts on the slide is simply this.  It's a cornerstone offensive play that will define the ROY season of the AL East two time Champion Baltimore Orioles.

Or a cheesy little league play after the season was already...Stick a fork in us were done...over.

I know which one I'm on.

Seriously, I loved the play.  Was sitting 20 rows up right at first base and I thought then he did it to avoid a possible collision.  And of course one pitch later...we go from down 2-0 to up 3-2.  It was a huge play.

[harp6]

7 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

I can’t find it right now but he was quoted after the game that avoiding a collision with Singleton was why he dove. I’m glad he did, that could have been ugly for one or both players. 

There is injury risk with both decisions.  He could have stayed up and a collision might of happened, but he also risked an injury by being stepped on by Singleton or anything else that can go wrong with a slide.  I know what Cowser is saying, because I once collided with a first baseman that weighed 250 lbs and I was only 160 lbs.  I was crossing first base and the next thing I know I was laying on my back.  I banged my head hard on the ground, but that seemed all right.  But our legs collided and I had a contusion with my lower leg swelling to twice its size.  I didn't say anything negative to the first baseman, but I was upset with the first baseman for crossing over the bag and colliding with me.  I was thinking that if he knew how to play first base, he would have touched the inside of the bag with his left foot and pushed off toward the infield to avoid the collision instead of just sprinting in a straight line over the bag into my path and colliding with me.  I made the mistake of trusting an amateur first baseman to know how to avoid a collision at first base.  But Singleton is a professional and should know how to avoid a collision with Cowser. 

Both ways have injury risk.  Cowser could trust the first baseman, but sometimes the collision still happens or Cowser could slide and an injury happens with the slide.

[OrioleintheATL]

I'm going focus on one thing.....it worked.  Who cares otherwise?

[interloper]

44 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Weird thought of mine.   Two outs, runners on first and third.   Grounder to left side.   If I’m the runner on first, I don’t slide into second.   I don’t slow down and run right through 2B.   The 2B can easily tag me out as I’ve overrun the base.  But, if I’ve beaten the force play it allows the runner on 3B to score before the 3rd out.   Waiting to see it happen one day.   

Don't the Cardinals do this pretty regularly? Feel like I saw something about it recently. 

[interloper]

It's hard not to want to give in to the allure of baseball mysticism with the Tony grand slam, and then this Cowser play and subsequent 3run double. They feel like defining, turning-point plays for the season.

Therefore, we'll probably lose today. Lol. 

On the Cowser play itself, I loved it. 

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, interloper said:

Don't the Cardinals do this pretty regularly? Feel like I saw something about it recently. 

Don’t know.  I’ve never actually seen it done.   I may have seen it on the runner’s mind but I’ve never seen a runner beat the throw to 2B by running full speed through the bag.

[RZNJ]

41 minutes ago, SemperFi said:

It's slower to slide into first is one of baeball's "old wives tales", the benefit you get is extending your arm roughly 3 feet, the negative is that friction slows you, if executed properly the difference is neglible.  Excerpt from Statcast on Gardner who used to slide into first often:

"Now if we just left it there, you might think we've proven that sliding into first is indisputably slower and no one could argue against that. 
So let's acknowledge that. So far, we've been focusing on Sprint Speed, which clearly drops when you dive, and we've talked about time, in seconds, of home-to-first. But really, the first 80 feet or so ought to be identical no matter whether you slide or not. Would we find a difference if we look at the final 10 feet for these selected plays? If sliding is faster, that's where it would present itself.

The answer is … inconclusive, perhaps. Looking at our five plays, Gardner got to the 80-feet mark in as little as 3.29 seconds and as high as 3.76 seconds. Over the last 10 feet, he got there in .34 and .35 seconds running, and .36, .36 and .37 seconds sliding.
If we repeat it using 85 feet rather than 80 feet, it's about the same. Over the last five feet, Gardner needed .18 and .18 running, and .18, .19 and .20 seconds sliding. It's not much of a difference. Or put another way, if he ran the final 10 feet at 30 feet per second, he'd need an estimated .33 seconds, which is what he showed in our pair of "running through" plays. If Gardner slid the final seven feet at 21 feet per second (seven, rather than 10, assuming he can reach out with his arms for the final three), that would be ... an identical .33 seconds."

Executed perfectly to me means you’ve touched the bag before your body actually starts sliding on the ground.    That is hard to time perfectly.

We all know, the main reason for sliding is to slow down quickly so you don’t overrun the bag at 2B and 3B.    So, generally speaking, I don’t want to do something that slows me down as I’m running to 1B.