Do you agree or disagree with Trembley's decision to "call out" Pie?

[dhaze]

Way to ignore eveything else I posted. Izturis getting thrown out at 3rd on a ground ball to SS, Huff getting picked off at 3rd, yada, yada, yada. You just focus on Pie on something I already said was a BAD PLAY.

Let's not forget Wigginton getting thrown out on a "delayed steal" by 15 feet on Saturday.

[Dipper9]

Way to ignore eveything else I posted. Izturis getting thrown out at 3rd on a ground ball to SS, Huff getting picked off at 3rd, yada, yada, yada. You just focus on Pie on something I already said was a BAD PLAY.

I apologize for quoting your post in that post. I didn't mean to single you or your post out. Numerous people have made the point you did about Trembley not liking Pie. That's what I was posting about. I'm sorry for the way it appeared I ignored the rest of your post. You are ABSOLUTELY correct that the entire team has played flawed, porr fundamental baseball all year, which is why I want the entire coaching staff replaced.

[tywright]

When can we all agree that defensive stats are and will always be flawed? Sure Pie has the ability to make amazing plays, but UZR doesn't measure his bonehead plays and lack of baseball instincts in the field. He makes poor routes to fly balls and to balls in the gaps, he throws to the wrong base, and his throws aren't accurate.

[Mackus]

Rep to you.

FWIW, I don't think Adam Jones is anywhere close to catching the ball that Pie did yesterday.

Adam Jones this year doesn't get that ball. Adam Jones last year might.

Hopefully Adam Jones next year would!

[Murray#1]

This is some flawed communistic way of looking at things. Not everyone is treate the same in life. Veterans do get more leeway and have earned more respect. At the same time, Trembley has said things about Mora, Markakis, Huff, Wigginton, and Roberts when they've made mistakes.

Either way, posters with a bird of rep around here certainly get more leeway then newbies because they've earned the respect of the community. Same things goes with major league players.

And the last thing I know, I get all this innuendo about, 'Well, this team doesn't play hard,' 'This team doesn't do that,' 'Trembley's passive,' this and that. People have no idea what I do when the doors are closed here. I don't call anybody out in front of the public.

I don't see how it's a communistic way of looking at things when people are just taking Trembley at his word. I don't care if he calls out certain players in public and others not, that's his prerogative as manager to handle those things as he sees fit. My issue with him is that if he has a certain set of standards he needs to maintain those standards regardless of the player. Don't say one thing and then do another. It's really hard to maintain respect when that's the way he operates.

I also don't see as how Melvin Mora has earned more respect than any other player. He is possibly the worst base runner I have ever seen. He makes some absolutely spectacular base running blunders. As a veteran he should know better. I would come down harder on a veteran that continues to make the same mistakes than I would a young player because the veterans not only should have learned the right way by now, but they're also the leaders on the team hopefully setting a good example for the younger players coming up.

[dhaze]

I think Pie's mistakes are highlighted because he plays infrequently. Other players are constantly doing stupid stuff on the basepaths.

[TyCobb]

His LF defense is unquestionably excellent. He's a bit above average in CF.

His UZR/150 from fangraphs is 16.6 in LF and 1.1 in CF this year (8.4 for his career in CF so he's probably even better than he's shown in CF this year due to sporadic time there). That UZR/150 ranks 25th of 58 CF who have had at least 100 innings in CF this year. And his UZR/150 in LF ranks 10th of 45 guys who have had at least 150 innings in LF this year.

His defense isn't questionable. He makes some mistakes from time to time, but everyone does. What everyone else doesn't do is make the great plays he's capable of making, like the running catch in CF last night.

Sample size at all?

This offseason everyone thought Adam Jones was the next Willie Mays. Now you guys want to move him to LF.

[LookitsPuck]

When can we all agree that defensive stats are and will always be flawed? Sure Pie has the ability to make amazing plays, but UZR doesn't measure his bonehead plays and lack of baseball instincts in the field. He makes poor routes to fly balls and to balls in the gaps, he throws to the wrong base, and his throws aren't accurate.

He makes poor routes to fly balls and balls in the gaps?

He throws to the wrong base? How often? I only recall one.

As for his throws not being accurate, how many assists does he have this year? I can recall him throwing out a guy at home plate twice and throwing out a runner at 3rd.

FWIW, Felix Pie has *4* outfield assists in only ~397 innings. Nick Markakis has 12 in 1100 innings. Do the math, and..well, y'know.

[Mackus]

When can we all agree that defensive stats are and will always be flawed? Sure Pie has the ability to make amazing plays, but UZR doesn't measure his bonehead plays and lack of baseball instincts in the field. He makes poor routes to fly balls and to balls in the gaps, he throws to the wrong base, and his throws aren't accurate.

I agree that defensive stats aren't definitive evidence of exactly how good someone has been. If one guy has a 14.5 UZR and the other has a 15.0, that doesn't mean the 2nd is definitely better than the first.

But, the margin for error is shrinking on these. If one guy has a 14.5 UZR and the other has a -5 UZR, that is definitive proof that the first guy is better.

Stick your head in completely the sand about the defensive stats if you want, but they definitely are a useful tool in judging people. They don't tell everything, but they tell a lot. And they certainly tell, definitively, that Pie is a good defensive OF. If you don't believe he is a very good defensive LF then you are blind to the truth of things by your dislike of him and over-emphasis on a few bad plays or poor routes that are in fact taken into account into these stats.

[hoosiers]

I think the "Pie being Pie" quote is inappropriate, but there is nothing wrong with calling out a player who made a mistake as long as there is no attempt to humiliate.

Pie has shown remarkable progress this year, but it is tempered by unbelievable lapses of judgement that make the player, for all his gifts, difficult for the manager to trust.

That said, I would prefer that DT handle this behind closed doors and not single out Pie in the interview and just say something like - we continue to make mental mistakes and run into too many outs on the basepaths.

[tywright]

He makes poor routes to fly balls and balls in the gaps?

He throws to the wrong base? How often? I only recall one.

As for his throws not being accurate, how many assists does he have this year? I can recall him throwing out a guy at home plate twice and throwing out a runner at 3rd.

FWIW, Felix Pie has *4* outfield assists in only ~397 innings. Nick Markakis has 12 in 1100 innings. Do the math, and..well, y'know.

What's your point?...Markakis has a better assist per inning ratio.

Have you watched Pie play all year? Stats don't tell you the whole story.

[Mackus]

Sample size at all?

This offseason everyone thought Adam Jones was the next Willie Mays. Now you guys want to move him to LF.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Pie's career numbers are very good too, not just this season.

And I haven't said Jones needs to be moved to LF. I've said if he doesn't show that this year is a fluke and he can be a solid defensive CF then he will have to move. Two completely different things, but you can go ahead and warp them however you want to try fit your argument.

[LookitsPuck]

What's your point?...Markakis has a better assist per inning ratio.

Have you watched Pie play all year? Stats don't tell you the whole story.

I've watched Pie all year without a doubt. I've see his play in the OF improve dramatically over the year. The question is..have you? The numbers show it. You're ignoring them to a certain extent.

FWIW, what I was saying about the assists is that Markakis is a plus thrower, would you agree? If he's averaging 1 every 92 innings, and Pie is average 1 every 100 innings, then I'd say that's pretty damn good.

[tywright]

I agree that defensive stats aren't definitive evidence of exactly how good someone has been. If one guy has a 14.5 UZR and the other has a 15.0, that doesn't mean the 2nd is definitely better than the first.

But, the margin for error is shrinking on these. If one guy has a 14.5 UZR and the other has a -5 UZR, that is definitive proof that the first guy is better.

Stick your head in completely the sand about the defensive stats if you want, but they definitely are a useful tool in judging people. They don't tell everything, but they tell a lot. And they certainly tell, definitively, that Pie is a good defensive OF. If you don't believe he is a very good defensive LF then you are blind to the truth of things by your dislike of him and over-emphasis on a few bad plays or poor routes that are in fact taken into account into these stats.

So do you think Pie is a better overall fielder than Markakis right now?

I haven't and I won't put blinders on regarding defensive stats. They are definitely useful, but I'm not going to put all my emphasis in scouting based on defensive stats like some here do.

It's obvious Pie has the tools to be a great OF, but he doesn't have the baseball smarts to actually reach his potential.

[snatch311]

So do you think Pie is a better overall fielder than Markakis right now?

I haven't and I won't put blinders on regarding defensive stats. They are definitely useful, but I'm not going to put all my emphasis in scouting based on defensive stats like some here do.

It's obvious Pie has the tools to be a great OF, but he doesn't have the baseball smarts to actually reach his potential.

I don't think that Markakis is in Pie's universe on defense. His bat more than makes up for it, but give me a break.