Do you agree or disagree with Trembley's decision to "call out" Pie?

[gold21030]

I think Luke Scott should be taking part of the blame getting thrown out at 2nd to end the 6th.

[tywright]

I think you're putting blinders on when you refuse to consider that a player who takes poor routes and makes occasional blunders could still be more productive than someone who is generally more fundamentally sound.

Ken Singleton used to take good routes to balls and made a pretty consistent one error a year. Felix Pie would probably get to about 200 more balls a year than Singleton in left. I think it's plausible, maybe even likely, that Pie is a better fielder than Nick Markakis right now.

The fact that UZR doesn't account for lack of baseball instincts makes the stat flawed. Sure Pie can cover more ground than most, but he also makes more boneheaded mistakes than most minor league players. The question is does this all even out or does Pie's blunders hurt the team more.

And 200 more balls is quite the exaggeration. Maybe over an entire career.

[Mackus]

Jones is clearly a better defensive CF than Pie. I don't know where people got the idea that Pie is "the best defensive outfielder on the team" but Markakis and Jones are in another universe compared to Pie. I really don't know how anyone could conclude that Pie was the best defensive OF on the team.

Jones played very well last year but has been very poor this year in the field. If you don't believe this to be true then you both aren't watching the games AND completely ignore every defensive metric there is.

I'm very optimistic that Jones will bounce back, adjust some things with his positioning, and be an above average defensive CF going forward. But, if he doesn't and he remains well below average, then we will need to consider moving him somewhere else.

[Mackus]

The fact that UZR doesn't account for lack of baseball instincts makes the stat flawed. Sure Pie can cover more ground than most, but he also makes more boneheaded mistakes than most minor league players. The question is does this all even out or does Pie's blunders hurt the team more.

And 200 more balls is quite the exaggeration. Maybe over an entire career.

Definite "account for lack of baseball instincts" because that seems like a something that has no physical meaning. Just a made up phrase so that your argument doesn't sound as illogical as it is in actuality.

UZR/150 would account for it if he took a bad route and couldn't get to a ball that other OF get to. It would account for it if he threw to the wrong base and a runner moved up. It accounts for those things by accounting for each and every play.

If he makes a play that other guys don't make, that's improves his score. If he misses a play that other guys do make, that lowers his score. So what else do you want it to do?

[snatch311]

The fact that UZR doesn't account for lack of baseball instincts makes the stat flawed. Sure Pie can cover more ground than most, but he also makes more boneheaded mistakes than most minor league players. The question is does this all even out or does Pie's blunders hurt the team more.

And 200 more balls is quite the exaggeration. Maybe over an entire career.

Can you enumerate Pie's mistakes please, and how much damage they caused?

We have the two baserunning mistakes this last game, and one time he threw to no base, and the lazy throw to the cut off guy. How many outs/runs did those cost?

Sure, there's plenty of times where people say "Only Pie makes that play," but many more are positive reactions than negative reactions.

[Dipper9]

So, the verdict is:

A 24 year old outfielder, who has been above average (statistically) in his limited opportunities, but makes mistakes deserves more criticism than below average veterans who make 10+ times more money.

If Pie played SS, 3B, or 1B, and was above average there, people would be much more forgiving, but because of our relative depth in the OF, he's seen as easily replaceable.

I hate running guys out of town, because they don't play the way people like them to play. His talent and production usurp the mistakes any day of the week.

Still though, lets wait to see how he handles his new semi-everyday status.

Not sure about this. His mistakes last night could have potentially cost us the game. He would have been run number 7 had he not tried to tag up on a pop up in the INFIELD! :rofl: I'm sorry, every time I think about a guy trying to tag up on an infield pop up, it just cracks me up!

[snatch311]

Pie is the new Cust.

[DrungoHazewood]

The latter. You can't really tell how good a fielder Pie is just now. Sure it looks like he got the tools to be a good CFer, but just how good nobody really knows.

I get pretty annoyed when people say that Pie would be such a great LFer. Saving 20 something runs more than making up for his bat when the best LFer the past 3 years is Carl Crawford and his UZR/150 was 10.4. Matt Holliday is 2nd with a 9.9.

Heck the best CF the past 3 years has been B.J. Upton with a 9.3 UZR/150. 2nd place goes to Coco Crips with a 9.2 UZR/150. And a distance 3rd place goes to Aaron Rowand with a 2.8 UZR/150.

You guys bring up just how good Pie is in the OF, but in reality the best fielders in the LF/CF save 1 win tops. Sure that is worth 4.5 million alone, but I think it is really hard to say that Pie is going to be one of the best in the world.

1. Most left fielders aren't there for their gloves. They're there because they can hit and they couldn't handle center or right. I think it's believable that Pie, a good center fielder, could be +10 in left, or more. Carl Crawford, who is really a center fielder playing left, has been over +10 (and as high as +25) all but one year of his career.

1a. You're only looking at qualifiers in left, meaning you've excluded players like Pie who're really center fielders but slide over to left when needed. You exclude guys like Franklin Gutierrez, who's averaged a +16 over the last three years.

2. Compared to Nolan Reimold Pie might approach +20.

[DrungoHazewood]

Pie is the new Cust.

Yes, in that he has a combinations of huge positives and glaring negatives, objective analysis suggests that the positives outweigh the negatives, yet there's a vocal group of people who insist that the negatives are all that matter.

[Mackus]

Yes, in that he has a combinations of huge positives and glaring negatives, objective analysis suggests that the positives outweigh the negatives, yet there's a vocal group of people who insist that the negatives are all that matter.

Excellent description of both players.

[snatch311]

Excellent description of both players.

Thank you.

[DrungoHazewood]

Definite "account for lack of baseball instincts" because that seems like a something that has no physical meaning. Just a made up phrase so that your argument doesn't sound as illogical as it is in actuality.

UZR/150 would account for it if he took a bad route and couldn't get to a ball that other OF get to. It would account for it if he threw to the wrong base and a runner moved up. It accounts for those things by accounting for each and every play.

If he makes a play that other guys don't make, that's improves his score. If he misses a play that other guys do make, that lowers his score. So what else do you want it to do?

Use a system that gives bad or embarassing plays veto power over the rest of a player's record. If your IUZR (improved UZR) is +20, but you screw up a route to a ball that automatically becomes -9829480.

[snatch311]

It's a fan's game. It's a SportsCenter game.

If the fan's don't want a guy like Pie, then hopefully he can go to a organization where he will be appreciated, and we can find a terrible player that plays the game the right way like Luis Hernandez or Joey Gathright.

Production is on a piece of paper, and that requires literacy in Ethiopia.

[TyCobb]

1. Most left fielders aren't there for their gloves. They're there because they can hit and they couldn't handle center or right. I think it's believable that Pie, a good center fielder, could be +10 in left, or more. Carl Crawford, who is really a center fielder playing left, has been over +10 (and as high as +25) all but one year of his career.

1a. You're only looking at qualifiers in left, meaning you've excluded players like Pie who're really center fielders but slide over to left when needed. You exclude guys like Franklin Gutierrez, who's averaged a +16 over the last three years.

2. Compared to Nolan Reimold Pie might approach +20.

1. I am looking at qualifiers because I want 3 years of data for LF. Sure someone can go nuts a put up a 25 UZR/150 in a single year like Crawford, but the chances of some sustaining that is extremely unlikely. Also the year Crawford put up the 25.6 UZR/150 he got hurt and played nearly 300 less ip in LF then he normally would play.

1a. Franklin Gutierrez is probably the best defensive player in the world. The guy has a UZR/150 of 21.3 in the OF! What is more impressive it is entirely made up if his RngR. Nobody is near Franklin in RngR, nobody.

2. If you believe Nolan will be a -10 UZR/150 in LF then yes Pie might approach +20, but I think Nolan isn't going to be that bad. The guy has a lot of foot speed and a very strong arm.

[Sports Guy]

Maybe, just maybe, this is the book on Pie? This guy came to the club with baggage for doing dumb things in games throughout his minor and major leagu career with the Cubs. There's a reason why he was available for Garrett Olson and there's a reason he'll never be more than a 4th outfielder for a contending major league club.

I'm sure Dave was frustrated after a tough loss, but it comes down to the fact that Pie is who he is. He'll flash some promise, but he'll probably always be a guy who will be inconsistent.

I know the guy gets a couple of hits and certain people get on his bandwagon, but I've seen enough of Pie this season to know he's not a regular guy on a good team. Now saying that, he'll flash enough that someone will give him an everyday look in CF, but I'll bet if you give the guy 550 at bats his line will look a lot like this .248/.312/.410. Add in his inconsistent base running and his occasional lapses in the field, and you have one below average starting outfielder.

And it couldn't be that a lack of playing time effects this, right?

I mean, no way he can actually improve if he plays...That would be crazy talk.

He should be the starting LFer next year, at least as of now..Lets see how he ends the year...He should sit vs most lefties and get 450-500 at bats.

DT was and continues to be totally wrong here..He does his usual double standard and only calls out guys that he chooses to instead of going after everyone.

Its pretty ridiculous.