Do you agree or disagree with Trembley's decision to "call out" Pie?

[TyCobb]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Pie's career numbers are very good too, not just this season.

And I haven't said Jones needs to be moved to LF. I've said if he doesn't show that this year is a fluke and he can be a solid defensive CF then he will have to move. Two completely different things, but you can go ahead and warp them however you want to try fit your argument.

Pie's career numbers are a sample size problem....

He has a total of 270 ip in LF. Which is 30 games or 18% of a full season.

He has a total of 762 ip in CF. Which is about 85 games or 52% of a full season.

[tywright]

I've watched Pie all year without a doubt. I've see his play in the OF improve dramatically over the year. The question is..have you? The numbers show it. You're ignoring them to a certain extent.

FWIW, what I was saying about the assists is that Markakis is a plus thrower, would you agree? If he's averaging 1 every 92 innings, and Pie is average 1 every 100 innings, then I'd say that's pretty damn good.

Nah I don't watch games at all...I just read Roch's blogs. For instance

http://masnsports.com/2009/08/in-need-of-a-do-over.html

Felix Pie fielded the ball, held it, couldn't find a cutoff man and threw to nobody. A run scored and Guerrero took second.

That's one of the biggest raps on Pie, his indecisiveness in the outfield.

Your move

[blueberryale77]

He's terribly inconsistent about his "respect".

Boneheaded plays by Mora? And there have been a ton. Nothing said in the media. Boneheaded plays by Roberts? And there have been a few. Nothing said in the media. Boneheaded plays by Wigginton? And there have been a few. Nothing said in the media.

Boneheaded plays by Huff? And there have been a few. Nothing said in the media.

Pie had one that you can legitimately get irked over yesterday (the foul ball tagging issue). The other just happens. Trembley not only calls him out, but is classless about it, "Oh that's just Pie being Pie." Grow up, Trembley. Preach respect all you want, but how about you actually deliver it? This is the second time he's called out Pie, but he never calls out his other players when they make mistakes. Not to mention Pie was certainly disappointed over the foul ball miscue.

I just think it was very poorly handled by Trembley. Like his managing the game yesterday.

Y'know, I don't like the blunder by Pie, but I'm not going to call him out and say he doesn't have baseball instincts. FWIW, I remember the exact play happening to Cesar Izturis (not knowing where the ball was, not the foul ball) on a hit and run in which he only made it to 2nd on a sharply hit ball to RF.

I'm not ruling out that Trembley might be unfairly biased against Pie, but that's the kind of thing you never really know unless you're a fly on the wall of the clubhouse. First of all, there is definitely some selective memory running rampant around here as to how Trembley "never" calls anyone else out. He certainly made clear that he wasn't happy the night Roberts forgot how many outs there were. More importantly, even those of us who don't like Trembley (including me) have to give him some leeway to make decisions about his players based on things he knows that we don't. The man does have a master's degree in psychology... maybe he knows his players well enough to know that Felix Pie will work harder at trying to stay focused if he's called out in public but Melvin Mora will only throw a temper tantrum and distract his teammates. (I'm not saying that's the case, just an example of what Trembley might be thinking.) Maybe he saw how furious Ty Wigginton was at himself after his blunder the other night and thought that was enough remorse or he knew there was nothing he could say to Roberts that would match the phone call he was going to get from his father later that night. It certainly doesn't appear from the outside that Trembley always has the best grasp on how to manage all of his players' personalities effectively, but there's no reason to expect that the best course of action would be to treat every single one of them exactly the same way regardless of age, past record, intelligence, personality or anything else.

[LookitsPuck]

Nah I don't watch games at all...I just read Roch's blogs. For instance

http://masnsports.com/2009/08/in-need-of-a-do-over.html

Your move

My move is exactly what I've been doing this entire thread:

1. His defense has improved all season

2. He's our best defensive outfielder by a long shot

3. His hitting has improved

Has he made blunders? Yes, but so has a ton of our players (Izturis, Mora, Huff, Wigginton, Roberts).

His gaffe going from 2nd to 3rd was dumb. The 1st one has happened to a bunch of our players.

You're going to find individual things here and there and quote them, and I'm going to look at the overall picture including his stats.

I'd say your move, but I'm already bored of this.

[MisterCrash]

I'm on board with Trembley. At what point do you stop babying Pie? If he wants to be an everyday starter he's got to put up with higher standards.

[Mackus]

Pie's career numbers are a sample size problem....

He has a total of 270 ip in LF. Which is 30 games or 18% of a full season.

He has a total of 762 ip in CF. Which is about 85 games or 52% of a full season.

So what are you saying? That defensive stats are bogus or that they are good but he hasn't played enough to merit looking at those stats? His minor league scouting reports were glowing about his defense.

Sure he makes mistakes. And him coming up short on having great baseball instincts will limit him from reaching his full potential. But whatever potential he has or will reach defensively still has him ending up as a much better defender than most outfielders.

As far as to who's the best right now, Pie is definitely the best CF, IMO. I don't think Nick could play CF as good as either Pie or Jones and Pie is better out there this year than Jones has been. Nick has been awfully good, IMO, in RF since about June or so. I've only got where his numbers are at now, which are still low for a RF, but I think that was because his start to the season was abnormally low in terms of the numbers, which have started turning around.

[tywright]

I'd say your move, but I'm already bored of this.

OK good...I'm done as soon as I post this great video

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6106853

[Mackus]

OK good...I'm done as soon as I post this great video

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6106853

Yep, because one mistake certainly is indicative of everything a player will do in the future.

When are we cutting Adam Jones? I saw him hold a flyball that he caught in medium depth CF for too long and let a runner tag up from 1st to 2nd. He's clearly awful and will never be any good, at least according to the logical stylings of tywright.

[DrungoHazewood]

So do you think Pie is a better overall fielder than Markakis right now?

I haven't and I won't put blinders on regarding defensive stats. They are definitely useful, but I'm not going to put all my emphasis in scouting based on defensive stats like some here do.

It's obvious Pie has the tools to be a great OF, but he doesn't have the baseball smarts to actually reach his potential.

I think you're putting blinders on when you refuse to consider that a player who takes poor routes and makes occasional blunders could still be more productive than someone who is generally more fundamentally sound.

Ken Singleton used to take good routes to balls and made a pretty consistent one error a year. Felix Pie would probably get to about 200 more balls a year than Singleton in left. I think it's plausible, maybe even likely, that Pie is a better fielder than Nick Markakis right now.

[tywright]

Yep, because one mistake certainly is indicative of everything a player will do in the future.

When are we cutting Adam Jones? I saw him hold a flyball that he caught in medium depth CF for too long and let a runner tag up from 1st to 2nd. He's clearly awful and will never be any good, at least according to the logical stylings of tywright.

Yeah Adam Jones was called out for this by Trembley. I posted the quotes a few pages back.

And this is just typical stuff for Pie. Even Roch commented about it being the norm for Pie.

And thanks for putting words in my mouth. I have not said he's awful and I even said he has the tools to be great, but he does NOT have the baseball smarts to fulfill that potential.

[MisterCrash]

Jones is clearly a better defensive CF than Pie. I don't know where people got the idea that Pie is "the best defensive outfielder on the team" but Markakis and Jones are in another universe compared to Pie. I really don't know how anyone could conclude that Pie was the best defensive OF on the team.

[snatch311]

So, the verdict is:

A 24 year old outfielder, who has been above average (statistically) in his limited opportunities, but makes mistakes deserves more criticism than below average veterans who make 10+ times more money.

If Pie played SS, 3B, or 1B, and was above average there, people would be much more forgiving, but because of our relative depth in the OF, he's seen as easily replaceable.

I hate running guys out of town, because they don't play the way people like them to play. His talent and production usurp the mistakes any day of the week.

Still though, lets wait to see how he handles his new semi-everyday status.

[TyCobb]

So what are you saying? That defensive stats are bogus or that they are good but he hasn't played enough to merit looking at those stats? His minor league scouting reports were glowing about his defense.

Sure he makes mistakes. And him coming up short on having great baseball instincts will limit him from reaching his full potential. But whatever potential he has or will reach defensively still has him ending up as a much better defender than most outfielders.

As far as to who's the best right now, Pie is definitely the best CF, IMO. I don't think Nick could play CF as good as either Pie or Jones and Pie is better out there this year than Jones has been. Nick has been awfully good, IMO, in RF since about June or so. I've only got where his numbers are at now, which are still low for a RF, but I think that was because his start to the season was abnormally low in terms of the numbers, which have started turning around.

The latter. You can't really tell how good a fielder Pie is just now. Sure it looks like he got the tools to be a good CFer, but just how good nobody really knows.

I get pretty annoyed when people say that Pie would be such a great LFer. Saving 20 something runs more than making up for his bat when the best LFer the past 3 years is Carl Crawford and his UZR/150 was 10.4. Matt Holliday is 2nd with a 9.9.

Heck the best CF the past 3 years has been B.J. Upton with a 9.3 UZR/150. 2nd place goes to Coco Crips with a 9.2 UZR/150. And a distance 3rd place goes to Aaron Rowand with a 2.8 UZR/150.

You guys bring up just how good Pie is in the OF, but in reality the best fielders in the LF/CF save 1 win tops. Sure that is worth 4.5 million alone, but I think it is really hard to say that Pie is going to be one of the best in the world.

[Mackus]

Yeah Adam Jones was called out for this by Trembley. I posted the quotes a few pages back.

And this is just typical stuff for Pie. Even Roch commented about it being the norm for Pie.

And thanks for putting words in my mouth. I have not said he's awful and I even said he has the tools to be great, but he does NOT have the baseball smarts to fulfill that potential.

Felix Pie's unfulfilled potential is much better defensively than most players at their full capacity. That's my point.

Even if he takes the occasional bad route or throws to the wrong base from time to time, the overall package is still much better than average defensively. Very good, even.

You're ignoring the truth if you don't agree with that.

[snatch311]

The latter. You can't really tell how good a fielder Pie is just now. Sure it looks like he got the tools to be a good CFer, but just how good nobody really knows.

I get pretty annoyed when people say that Pie would be such a great LFer. Saving 20 something runs more than making up for his bat when the best LFer the past 3 years is Carl Crawford and his UZR/150 was 10.4. Matt Holliday is 2nd with a 9.9.

Heck the best CF the past 3 years has been B.J. Upton with a 9.3 UZR/150. 2nd place goes to Coco Crips with a 9.2 UZR/150. And a distance 3rd place goes to Aaron Rowand with a 2.8 UZR/150.

You guys bring up just how good Pie is in the OF, but in reality the best fielders in the LF/CF save 1 win tops. Sure that is worth 4.5 million alone, but I think it is really hard to say that Pie is going to be one of the best in the world.

I don't think it's that hard to say about LF. In CF, I agree.