Who knows if this is true or not...

[Sports Guy]

It's also not always about the tools of the organization but the personality/needs of the player and how he fits into the atmosphere of the org. I don't think it's always fair to throw all blame on scouting/development. A fair amount of the time you also run into situations where a player just isn't a good fit.

But when you draft that guy, shouldn't you have an idea of this?

[Stotle]

But when you draft that guy, shouldn't you have an idea of this?

I would think so, but I'm not an expert. As an aside (and certainly out of my area of knowledge), if area guys are in fact giving grades that don't match the player (which I believe is what Tony was implying) do you trust them to assess make-up/personality/etc. accurately?

[Hank Scorpio]

But when you draft that guy, shouldn't you have an idea of this?

Yes, you should have an idea, but you'll never know everything.

[Sports Guy]

I would think so, but I'm not an expert. As an aside (and certainly out of my area of knowledge), if area guys are in fact giving grades that don't match the player (which I believe is what Tony was implying) do you trust them to assess make-up/personality/etc. accurately?

I don't trust them to get accurate 40 times.

[Stotle]

I don't trust them to get accurate 40 times.

Would be tough -- I don't think they tend to run the 40 in baseball.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Two comments.

1) MacPhail has had three years... three freakin' years of miserable on-field performance... to figure out what's wrong and make some moves to change it. He had the authority -- the mandate -- to come in and turn things around. He basically announced during the 07-08 offseason that things were worse than he had believed, so the fact that there were deep systemic flaws has been known for at least two and a half years. Yet the moves we have seen since then -- the swapping of the Stockstills, the hirings of Klentak and McDaniel, some minor shuffling in the minor league staffs -- look more like tweaking the machine than a true overhaul.

I've been a big supporter of MacPhail. I chuckled at the deliberate way he approached trades. I swallowed the awfulness of 08 and 09 under the belief that progress was being made and the organization was being turned around. The idea that the problems are still being debated, much less corrected, makes me furious.

It's called leadership, and I don't see any manifest here.

2) There is a lot of dissonance in Jordan if we are to believe that he has problems with the development side. He had the #3 overall pick in the draft 10 days ago, and a choice between a near-finished NCAA SS and a higher-ceiling HS kid who will need to be developed. If you don't believe that your development guys know what they're doing, why would you choose the high-ceiling HS kid?

[Tony-OH]

Switching gears for a second, do you still hold the same opinion of Avery that you held last offseason. I believe you said that no player with his plate discipline in low A ball ever became any good in the majors or something to that effect. He's still far away and has lots of improvements to make but he does seem to be progressing. Do you still feel the same way about him?

I believe I said I had a hard time finding someone with his plate discipline at the same age/level that ended up a big league starter. I stand by that.

Saying that, he has taken some steps forward this year drawing more walks, striking out less, and hitting for more power (he already has as many 2bs as he hit all last season).

He's going to be an interesting guy to follow because he's very streaky. He's on a hot streak right now and has upped his #s, and out of the guys I saw in Frederick I thought he had the best hands through the zone even though he didn't get any hits that night and missed twice on a sacrifice attempt.

He's got a ways to go, but I do believe he's one of the guys who has improved his stock since last year.

[Stotle]

Two comments.

1) MacPhail has had three years... three freakin' years of miserable on-field performance... to figure out what's wrong and make some moves to change it. He had the authority -- the mandate -- to come in and turn things around. He basically announced during the 07-08 offseason that things were worse than he had believed, so the fact that there were deep systemic flaws has been known for at least two and a half years. Yet the moves we have seen since then -- the swapping of the Stockstills, the hirings of Klentak and McDaniel, some minor shuffling in the minor league staffs -- look more like tweaking the machine than a true overhaul.

I've been a big supporter of MacPhail. I chuckled at the deliberate way he approached trades. I swallowed the awfulness of 08 and 09 under the belief that progress was being made and the organization was being turned around. The idea that the problems are still being debated, much less corrected, makes me furious.

It's called leadership, and I don't see any manifest here.

2) There is a lot of dissonance in Jordan if we are to believe that he has problems with the development side. He had the #3 overall pick in the draft 10 days ago, and a choice between a near-finished NCAA SS and a higher-ceiling HS kid who will need to be developed. If you don't believe that your development guys know what they're doing, why would you choose the high-ceiling HS kid?

I am astounded that there hasn't been a high profile hiring of an international guy, scouting guy or development guy from a successful organization. WAS went out and got the SD that ran around 7 quality drafts for the D-backs. The Pads have grabbed from the Red Sox. How can this organization make zero moves that will actually resonate throughout the org? I understand that MacPhail can't do everything himself. So why doesn't he either 1) hire a GM to worry about personnel and he himself focus on organizational strucutre, or 2) hire someone to closely examine structure and clean house while he focuses on personnel?

It doesn't have to be that cut and dry, but if it honestly takes 3-4 years to make large changes, you simply need more people to help you. I can't imagine pitching something to my law firm with the understanding that it will take 4 years for any significant changes to be made. It's astounding.

[waroriole]

I am astounded that there hasn't been a high profile hiring of an international guy, scouting guy or development guy from a successful organization. WAS went out and got the SD that ran around 7 quality drafts for the D-backs. The Pads have grabbed from the Red Sox. How can this organization make zero moves that will actually resonate throughout the org? I understand that MacPhail can't do everything himself. So why doesn't he either 1) hire a GM to worry about personnel and he himself focus on organizational strucutre, or 2) hire someone to closely examine structure and clean house while he focuses on personnel?

It doesn't have to be that cut and dry, but if it honestly takes 3-4 years to make large changes, you simply need more people to help you. I can't imagine pitching something to my law firm with the understanding that it will take 4 years for any significant changes to be made. It's astounding.

I'm kind of afraid to know the answer to this. If it's AM's fault, that would be fine. We just fire him and move on to someone who will get these things done. If it is what I'm afraid of, Angelos holding things up, then it won't matter who we bring in b/c Angelos won't allow changes to be made.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Would be tough -- I don't think they tend to run the 40 in baseball.

Not to mention that the margin of error with a hand-timed 40 essentially exceeds the margin of usefulness. If you aren't going to time it electronically, you almost might as well eyeball it.

[ChaosLex]

Where's our lollipoppers at?

[Stotle]

Not to mention that the margin of error with a hand-timed 40 essentially exceeds the margin of usefulness. If you aren't going to time it electronically, you almost might as well eyeball it.

This is true, but you'd be surprised how many area guys are standing next to the big electronic clock with their own watches out at these showcases.

[Arthur_Bryant]

I'm kind of afraid to know the answer to this. If it's AM's fault, that would be fine. We just fire him and move on to someone who will get these things done. If it is what I'm afraid of, Angelos holding things up, then it won't matter who we bring in b/c Angelos won't allow changes to be made.

I am not laying this at the feet of Angelos, at least not in terms of him interfering or holding things up. I believed three years ago that MacPhail came in with authority and a mandate, and I haven't changed that opinion.

In the end, though, it doesn't really matter. Whether Angelos continues to meddle, or he just can't identify the right people, is immaterial. At least it is for me. Bottom line, this organization continues to be debilitated, and the hopes of it actually turning around before the next Ice Age seem dimmer by the day.

[Arthur_Bryant]

This is true, but you'd be surprised how many area guys are standing next to the big electronic clock with their own watches out at these showcases.

Old habits die hard.

[RShack]

When things go to hell, people start pointing fingers at each other. So, no surprise that there are internal rifts. I don't know which of these 2 sides has the most merit to their claims. All I know is that last year people were mostly happy with Jordan and mostly happy with how kid-P's looked when they came up. Now, suddenly, some people are unhappy with both. Amazing how losing makes people do a 180.

Don't misunderstand, I am not saying that both sides of this rift are wrong. I'm saying that I have no way to know. I'm also saying that the folks who are saying, "See!!!!" were not saying that last year when they said Jordon was fine and when the team benefited from Nolan and BB coming up, and later on Matusz.

Just having internal divisions is not necessarily terrible. For example, both Earl Weaver and "superscout" Jim Russo were great at their jobs. But if one of them said "up", the other one would say "down". However, the team was good and played great, so nobody cared about that (except Russo and Weaver).