Bundy pitching for Frederick Keys tonight.

[Norfolk orioles]

My first thought when hearing the Norris trade last year was ... "I think this guy is an available free agent in my American League only fantasy league. How is it possible we gave up a supplemental first?" It is just too difficult to ponder the calculus of our front office that was so misguided to reconcile the asset we received with what we gave up (including international slots) in this trade - let alone my misgivings about how poorly the FO judged our competitive position. It is as if our FO said, if you let us keep Bundy, Gausman, EdRod and Walker, you can have multiple pieces of what remains.

For those counting at home, that's three SPs our FO has acquired to put in front of Gausman for nearly a year. Another thought that is not very comforting, IMO.

Yet here we sit in first place so we'll see how it goes and how it ends. I truly hope it ends well, especially since I think we will be parting with even more minor league talent in the next few weeks. DD said the major league team would be competitive while he built up the farm, but he is really letting us down regarding the second part of that equation IMO.

Good post, totally agree.

Glad to see I'm not the only one deeply troubled by the complete lack of top notch hitting prospects in our organization.

I know the strategy is grow the arms and buy the bats, but man, you have to be able to find some young cheap hitting somewhere along the line don't you?

Markakis isn't gonna be around forever (maybe not even after this year), Cruz is most likely gone, hardy probably has only a few years left if that and Davis is probably gone after next year because someone will overpay him.

That leaves us with manny (who will cost a fortune soon enough), Adam and schoop as the only long young long term orioles currently on this roster. And there appears to be very little help on the horizon as well.

In my opinion, this just makes it all the more likely we "go for it" over the next year of two because the future looks rather bleak.

Guess we will see what Dan does soon enough but you have to keep guys like Harvey, bundy and Gausman in this organization.

[hoosiers]

There is certainly a heavy reliance going forward on Bundy, Gausman and Harvey and the need for at least one of them to be a 2 and one a 3 - assuming we keep all three.

I don't think I could have been more impressed with our three top draft picks in 2013 (Harvey, Hart and Sisco) plus our top three international signs (Reyes, Diaz and Peralta). It only takes a few years of that kind of talent grabbing to have a deep system, but our FO removed the US portion of that equation through our acquisitions in 2014 along with dealing Hader. Net/Net, I'd rather have not acquired the sum of Bud, Ubaldo and Cruz for the collective cost. It is likely we can let Cruz leave after this season and get a top pick (in which case that move would have paid off spectacularly), but I expect we will resign him considering his Herculean contribution this year.

There has been very, very little dealing of vets for prospects since Duquette arrived and Buck did not sign up for any re-build (or seemingly any move that detracts from the major league team). This front office seems to only move forward with acquiring major league talent. It is funny to ponder how much better off the team would be for Stotle's much-maligned Davis-Rendon swap with the Nationals. People always equate dealing veterans like Hardy and Davis (and before that calls to deal Wieters, JJ and others) as steps backward, but it does not have to be like that (and yet here we are in first place without much help from Davis and Wieters and JJ gone). It is as if the Bedard trade is there to be loved and cherished, but not done again. While this team is at a different point in the competitive cycle, I'd prefer the opportunities that add to the organizational talent base overall.

[Ohfan67]

There is certainly a heavy reliance going forward on Bundy, Gausman and Harvey and the need for at least one of them to be a 2 and one a 3 - assuming we keep all three.

I don't think I could have been more impressed with our three top draft picks in 2013 (Harvey, Hart and Sisco) plus our top three international signs (Reyes, Diaz and Peralta). It only takes a few years of that kind of talent grabbing to have a deep system, but our FO removed the US portion of that equation through our acquisitions in 2014 along with dealing Hader. Net/Net, I'd rather have not acquired the sum of Bud, Ubaldo and Cruz for the collective cost. It is likely we can let Cruz leave after this season and get a top pick (in which case that move would have paid off spectacularly), but I expect we will resign him considering his Herculean contribution this year.

There has been very, very little dealing of vets for prospects since Duquette arrived and Buck did not sign up for any re-build (or seemingly any move that detracts from the major league team). This front office seems to only move forward with acquiring major league talent. It is funny to ponder how much better off the team would be for Stotle's much-maligned Davis-Rendon swap with the Nationals. People always equate dealing veterans like Hardy and Davis (and before that calls to deal Wieters, JJ and others) as steps backward, but it does not have to be like that (and yet here we are in first place without much help from Davis and Wieters and JJ gone). It is as if the Bedard trade is there to be loved and cherished, but not done again. While this team is at a different point in the competitive cycle, I'd prefer the opportunities that add to the organizational talent base overall.

Wow. It's like you guys would enjoy the O's having a minor league organization ranked in the top five by baseball America infinitely more than you enjoy the O's being in first place at the all star break with an excellent shot at winning the division. And with a team that is set to be competitive for years. Does the minor league system need to get stronger? Sure. But an organization can win, can make moves to win, and still build a very good minor league system. Just look at the young players developed by perennial winners, including perennial winners that sign free agents, trade young players, etc. I think you guys want to wait on a future that often never gets here.

[hoosiers]

Wow. It's like you guys would enjoy the O's having a minor league organization ranked in the top five by baseball America infinitely more than you enjoy the O's being in first place at the all star break with an excellent shot at winning the division. And with a team that is set to be competitive for years. Does the minor league system need to get stronger? Sure. But an organization can win, can make moves to win, and still build a very good minor league system. Just look at the young players developed by perennial winners, including perennial winners that sign free agents, trade young players, etc. I think you guys want to wait on a future that often never gets here.

I think you miss the gist of the comments in this thread.

I would love to see a consistent winner in Bmore that has a strong minor league system. The Orioles, however, are not following any of the paths laid out by Boston, St. Louis, Tampa, Oakland, to make this happen - such as spending like crazy internationally, dealing veterans for prospects, etc. Our current competitiveness has been brought forward through a strong weakening of our minor league talent without a single meaningful move made to improve our minor league talent in two years.

Further, very few of the suggestions made this past offseason or earlier in this thread would have weakened the major league team. If we had given Gausman the ball to start the season instead of Jimenez, we'd be better off. If we had dealt Chris Davis for prospects (preferably one or two major league ready), we'd be better off. We are better off without Jim Johnson. If we had dealt Wieters for prospects, we'd be better off - assuming these trades brought appropriate prospect packages back. We would be better off because the team would have re-cycled veterans whose production value relative to their salary was declining substantially - which is what Oakland and Tampa have done so well for a while now - by obtaining prospects and lowering salary commitments to sign free agents. Those suggestions have to do with building a strong minor league system and improving the major league team.

[jcarm]

I agree the cost of acquiring Bud Norris might have been a bit steep and that he did not pitch well on Tuesday-but look at his numbers this year! 3.96 ERA-pretty solid. 1.187 WHIP-very solid as well. He is performing well and is an asset to the team. If Chris Davis was dealt in the off season-the majority of the fan base would have been outraged! Of course, if Davis continues to perform the way he has-he may very well be a non tender candidate. Hind sight is 20/20. Nelson Cruz has been well worth the price paid(and may not have signed here if the Orioles had traded Davis and Wieters-I am sure that he wants to win now). The Orioles are in first place and are playing well. Last years draft did a world of good for the farm system-maybe this years draft will surprise some people. Things are not all doom and gloom. I do think that the thing that would help the Orioles most long term is not neccessarily anything to do with drafting or handling current assets(major or minor league players). The thing that would help them most long term is to start spending big on the international market. The signings that they have made in the last few years do seem nice and they are a step in the right direction-but they are chump change compared to what the so called "model franchises" spend-Boston, St. Louis, Tampa, Oakland(or most any other team for that matter).

[Guest]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Dylan Bundy has allowed 4 runs and 5 hits in 4 innings tonight for Class A Frederick at Salem <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/orioles?src=hash">#orioles</a></p>— Roch Kubatko (@masnRoch) <a href="

">July 17, 2014</a></blockquote>

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Frobby]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Dylan Bundy has allowed 4 runs and 5 hits in 4 innings tonight for Class A Frederick at Salem <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/orioles?src=hash">#orioles</a></p>— Roch Kubatko (@masnRoch) <a href="

">July 17, 2014</a></blockquote>

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So maybe he's not going to be our ace down the stretch at age 21 just off TJ surgery? I'm shocked!

Seriously, now we are seeing the reality of the situation. He's rusty, and it's unknown whether he'll ever regain his full pre-surgery capabilities. Hopefully he stays healthy, builds up some innings, and is in position to come to spring training feeling good about where he's at.

[webbrick2010]

My first thought when hearing the Norris trade last year was ... "I think this guy is an available free agent in my American League only fantasy league. How is it possible we gave up a supplemental first?" It is just too difficult to ponder the calculus of our front office that was so misguided to reconcile the asset we received with what we gave up (including international slots) in this trade - let alone my misgivings about how poorly the FO judged our competitive position. It is as if our FO said, if you let us keep Bundy, Gausman, EdRod and Walker, you can have multiple pieces of what remains.

For those counting at home, that's three SPs our FO has acquired to put in front of Gausman for nearly a year. Another thought that is not very comforting, IMO.

Yet here we sit in first place so we'll see how it goes and how it ends. I truly hope it ends well, especially since I think we will be parting with even more minor league talent in the next few weeks. DD said the major league team would be competitive while he built up the farm, but he is really letting us down regarding the second part of that equation IMO.

Funny I immediately posted last year that DD was fleeced on this trade, and was almost unanimously shouted down by the plethora of OH posters who clinged to the thought that the O's were in contention.

Bud Norris has actually been much better than I projected, but with Fisher as the supplemental pick this trade will soon be highlighted as one of the worst O's trades in the last couple decades.

Apparently DD never watched Hader pitch, I did... barring injury he is going to be very very good.

[Can_of_corn]

Funny I immediately posted last year that DD was fleeced on this trade, and was almost unanimously shouted down by the plethora of OH posters who clinged to the thought that the O's were in contention.

Bud Norris has actually been much better than I projected, but with Fisher as the supplemental pick this trade will soon be highlighted as one of the worst O's trades in the last couple decades.

Apparently DD never watched Hader pitch, I did... barring injury he is going to be very very good.

Pretty shocking how you managed to mention Hader in a thread about Bundy....

[webbrick2010]

I think you miss the gist of the comments in this thread.

I would love to see a consistent winner in Bmore that has a strong minor league system. The Orioles, however, are not following any of the paths laid out by Boston, St. Louis, Tampa, Oakland, to make this happen - such as spending like crazy internationally, dealing veterans for prospects, etc. Our current competitiveness has been brought forward through a strong weakening of our minor league talent without a single meaningful move made to improve our minor league talent in two years.

Further, very few of the suggestions made this past offseason or earlier in this thread would have weakened the major league team. If we had given Gausman the ball to start the season instead of Jimenez, we'd be better off. If we had dealt Chris Davis for prospects (preferably one or two major league ready), we'd be better off. We are better off without Jim Johnson. If we had dealt Wieters for prospects, we'd be better off - assuming these trades brought appropriate prospect packages back. We would be better off because the team would have re-cycled veterans whose production value relative to their salary was declining substantially - which is what Oakland and Tampa have done so well for a while now - by obtaining prospects and lowering salary commitments to sign free agents. Those suggestions have to do with building a strong minor league system and improving the major league team.

Man I'm loving this thread... everything I've been harping on for years coming out in the same thread.

The O's failed to move Jim Johnson at peak value and got nothing.

they failed to move Wieters and now with the elbow injury stand to get next to nothing.

and coming off a SS/GG they failed to move Hardy and will get much less than they could have 6 months ago.

The O's are facing a scary cliff starting next year.

Meanwhile Boston had 14 first round picks in the last 5 years and many are percolating to the top of their farm system and breaking into the majors.

[webbrick2010]

Shocking that you didn't take the time to read the thread

Half a dozen posts discussing Hader before I made a post

[Can_of_corn]

Shocking that you didn't take the time to read the thread

Half a dozen posts discussing Hader before I made a post

I guess you didn't take the time to read the thread, I mentioned Hader in it.

What is irritating me, and at least one other poster who chastised you for it yesterday, is that at every hint of a chance you mention Hader. Give it a rest. A lot of us think that DD overpaid for Norris, you are not some lone seer.

[glenn__davis]

Funny I immediately posted last year that DD was fleeced on this trade, and was almost unanimously shouted down by the plethora of OH posters who clinged to the thought that the O's were in contention.

LOL. Stop it. There were plenty of people who thought it was too much to give up and said so at the time. There were plenty of people who were very high on Josh Hader and who believed it may very well turn out to be a bad trade for the Orioles.

[Frobby]

I think you miss the gist of the comments in this thread.

I would love to see a consistent winner in Bmore that has a strong minor league system. The Orioles, however, are not following any of the paths laid out by Boston, St. Louis, Tampa, Oakland, to make this happen - such as spending like crazy internationally, dealing veterans for prospects, etc. Our current competitiveness has been brought forward through a strong weakening of our minor league talent without a single meaningful move made to improve our minor league talent in two years.

Further, very few of the suggestions made this past offseason or earlier in this thread would have weakened the major league team. If we had given Gausman the ball to start the season instead of Jimenez, we'd be better off. If we had dealt Chris Davis for prospects (preferably one or two major league ready), we'd be better off. We are better off without Jim Johnson. If we had dealt Wieters for prospects, we'd be better off - assuming these trades brought appropriate prospect packages back. We would be better off because the team would have re-cycled veterans whose production value relative to their salary was declining substantially - which is what Oakland and Tampa have done so well for a while now - by obtaining prospects and lowering salary commitments to sign free agents. Those suggestions have to do with building a strong minor league system and improving the major league team.

Man I'm loving this thread... everything I've been harping on for years coming out in the same thread.

The O's failed to move Jim Johnson at peak value and got nothing.

they failed to move Wieters and now with the elbow injury stand to get next to nothing.

and coming off a SS/GG they failed to move Hardy and will get much less than they could have 6 months ago.

The O's are facing a scary cliff starting next year.

Meanwhile Boston had 14 first round picks in the last 5 years and many are percolating to the top of their farm system and breaking into the majors.

These are worthwhile discussions, but they do seem to be hijacking this thread, which supposedly is about Bundy. I'm going to post a thread on the main board reprinting these two posts and start a discussion over there, and maybe we can get back to discussing Bundy here.

Edit: OK, I've done it: http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/142497-Have-we-sacrificed-too-much-the-last-2-seasons-trying-to-be-in-quot-win-now-quot-mode?p=3545257#post3545257

[waroriole]

LOL. Stop it. There were plenty of people who thought it was too much to give up and said so at the time. There were plenty of people who were very high on Josh Hader and who believed it may very well turn out to be a bad trade for the Orioles.

I was against it, but I thought the draft pick was the most valuable asset.