Have we sacrificed too much the last 2 seasons trying to be in "win now" mode?

[O'sLaw3087]

He has maximum value because people think he will help their team win. The Orioles also thought they would help the team win. That is why we didn't trade them. You don't trade your core players two years out all the time or you end up being a constant loser. Could you imagine if the Yankees traded Cano for prospects 2 1/2 years ago? Could you imagine how that would have went over? I don't understand why people on here still have the loser mentality they had in days of old. You can get the compensation pick if you offer Wieters the 15 million or whaterver and he doesn't take it.

This. Heading into this year we objectively needed Davis and Wieters to have a shot at winning. (Unless DD somehow knew Cruz/Pearce were on pace to combine for roughly 70ish homers and 200ish RBIs). Also I know you get a bigger haul if you deal players with they are still team controlled, but if you have a realistic chance to win you'll likely need those playerss. For example, if the Rays aren't opposed to playing Price what he is likely due in arbitration this year (I actually think they are a bit), it makes no sense to deal him this year at the deadline. They would essentially be punting on next year unless they realistically believe they are SO good that they can deal a true TOR ace and still compete for a World Series next year. The much better plan? Wait and see how you do next year and if it doesn't pan out deal him at that deadline. You're likely still going to make out like a bandit and you haven't sabotaged your team's future chances.

[VeveJones007]

This "scary cliff" is not so concerning if Gausman, Bundy and later Harvey develop like we hope. Team would be all about pitching and defense. We still have AJ and Machado as ligit franchise position players for the long term as well.

Not to mention the fact that you would be paying a pittance for that rotation. They'll be able to replace guys like Hardy and Wieters in free agency with capable players.

[Stotle]

I guess I'll also say that Machado, Gausman, hopefully Bundy, will all be deciding whether or not to extend at some point in the near future (1-3 years), provided the team is proactive. You need to show them that as an org you are going to be relevant as long as they are here.

Maintaining a presence around .500 and staying relevant into August, as a general goal, is great for keeping money coming in from fans and advertisers. Players, at some point, do start to wonder if the org is committed enough to make the moves to push the team over the top. Money to extend those three (and maybe others) means you need to fill other holes with in-house fixes, trades, or free agents. The first two require a robust amateur acquisition plan (Cubs; Rangers); the last option requires infusion of payroll space.

If you don't expect a huge infusion of payroll space, do you see sign enough that the organization is amassing a large enough cache of prospect assets to trade/promote two or three or four years from now?

[Stotle]

This. Heading into this year we objectively needed Davis and Wieters to have a shot at winning. (Unless DD somehow knew Cruz/Pearce were on pace to combine for roughly 70ish homers and 200ish RBIs). Also I know you get a bigger haul if you deal players with they are still team controlled' date=' but if you have a realistic chance to win you'll likely need those playerss. For example, if the Rays aren't opposed to playing Price what he is likely due in arbitration this year (I actually think they are a bit), it makes no sense to deal him this year at the deadline. They would essentially be punting on next year unless they realistically believe they are SO good that they can deal a true TOR ace and still compete for a World Series next year. The much better plan? Wait and see how you do next year and if it doesn't pan out deal him at that deadline. You're likely still going to make out like a bandit and you haven't sabotaged your team's future chances.[/quote']

You subjectively needed them, apparently. Neither are producing or particularly relevant to the team this year and the Orioles are in first place.

[foxfield]

This 100%. Now this what have we really sacrificed?

2012

Orioles get Jim Thome give up Gabriel Lino and Kyle Simon. Sorry I'm not crying over this one

Orioles get Joe Saunders give up Matt Lindstrom. Once again not crying over this one.

2013

Orioles get Bud Norris give up L.J. Hoes , Josh Hader and 2014 competitive balance pick. Once again not crying over this move we needed a SP bad.

Orioles get Francisco Rodriguez give up Nick Delmonico. Sorry with Manny in Baltimore this kid was blocked.

Orioles get Scott Feldman and Steve Clevenger and give up Jake Arrieta (Sorry folks Jake was a mess in Baltimore) Pedro Strop not crying over this move.

To the people that said we should trade Davis , Jim Johnson , Wieters and Hardy.

Hardy- No team in MLB would have traded Hardy you don't trade SS that hit 77 HR in 3 years.

Johnson- Sorry Baltimore fans overrate this guy big time. He never had real trade value.

Davis- Why trade him? NO team in MLB is gonna give you anything good for 1.5 good years of Davis. As you can see in 2014 Davis is back to his old ways.

Wieters- Once again fans overrate him what do you think your gonna get for a catcher that cant hit over .250 ?

In summary the Orioles over the last 2.5 years haven't really sacrificed much.

I tend to agree with your line of thinking here. I also tend to think that the question "Have the Orioles Sacrificed too much to in order to win now?" can be answered yes in spite of your comments. This is where I am still unsure how I would answer. I do not think our sacrifice as you note has been too much in terms of talent that we moved for whatever reason. However, I do think that trading young talent and also losing picks is unsustainable as Stolte and others above point out.

[Stotle]

Markakis might be here another 4 years. But whatever. You have guys who are making less amounts than they are worth pitching on the team which balances out guys making more than they are worth. That is free agency for you. If you didn't realize it free agent pitchers aren't beating down the Orioles door trying to pitch at Camden Yards. It is not like that 12 million a year would have been used on another player. There weren't other quality free agent starting pitchers who were willing to come here. It is just 12 million that the ownership would have kept.

I think we are talking past each other. I'm happy you are happy and confident with the direction of the organization.

[atomic]

1. While I didn't think Davis would be this bad' date=' I thought he was going to have a serious regression this season. Unlike somebody like Cano, who was/is always going to be good.

2. The Yankees are capable of operating on a different level than the Orioles are. What they are able to do, and what we are able to do, are two different things.

3. It's not a loser mentality. It's actually the opposite. I think/thought with Gausman and Bundy, the Orioles are going to have two front end starters. I was/am excited about their future in the next few years, and wanted to make moves that put the Orioles in position to take advantage of their Gausman-Bundy window. Davis isn't going to be apart of that window.[/quote']

Bundy might turn out to be nothing. You don't know. Even if Bundy and Gausman succeed in the bigs you need three other solid starters and a couple of guys in the wings. Gausman and Bundy can't win on their own.

As for Davis we have been trying to acquire a power hitting first baseman for years and no one would come here. It looks like we finally got one and you are going to trade him away? That makes no sense. Hopefully, Chris can turn things around this year. I didn't expect Chris to have a year like last year again but I figured him good for 30 HRS and 90 RBI's which he will probably hit. But I was expecting more OBP and Average and Slugging. I was expecting 2012 Chris Davis. And if you got that you would be happy.

[atomic]

I think we are talking past each other. I'm happy you are happy and confident with the direction of the organization.

Why wouldn't you be? It makes no sense. We had 14 straight losing seasons now it looks like this will be our third winning season in a row and we are in first place. We tried your way for a long time and look what it got us. Last place and out of the hunt by the all-star break.

[VeveJones007]

At some point you have to decide that you have an opportunity to win it all and go for it. That means not dealing Chris Davis, not dealing Matt Wieters. Trading to get guys like Norris or give good a contract to a guy like Ubaldo. You have to take chances.

I think it's year and next are appropriate windows for that. The Yankees are down, the red sox are rebuilding, the Rays look down.

If you are going to start trading this proven producers than why are you going to keep a Tillman or a Jones? Those guys are going to ensure your not getting a top 5 pick.

It's really easy to say in hindsight that we would be better off if we traded a guy having a down season. And it's really easy to say if we just traded our proven commodities for prospects who were good prospects we would be better off. But we don't know what the Orioles could actually have gotten for those guys. We didn't know Davis wasn't going to produce like the last two years or Wieters would get hurt. If those things don't happen, the orioles might be the best team in baseball.

Cue Herm Edwards.

I hear Herm on repeat as I read this thread.

Obviously you need a balance between winning now and building for the future. However, some of the responses in this thread make me think that some fans would prefer to not win the division this year to improve the foundation for future seasons. You have to sit down at the table to have a chance to win.

[Stotle]

Why wouldn't you be? It makes no sense. We had 14 straight losing seasons now it looks like this will be our third winning season in a row and we are in first place. We tried your way for a long time and look what it got us. Last place and out of the hunt by the all-star break.

First off, huh?

Second, some people like checkers and some like chess. Both are fun games in different ways.

[atomic]

I tend to agree with your line of thinking here. I also tend to think that the question "Have the Orioles Sacrificed too much to in order to win now?" can be answered yes in spite of your comments. This is where I am still unsure how I would answer. I do not think our sacrifice as you note has been too much in terms of talent that we moved for whatever reason. However, I do think that trading young talent and also losing picks is unsustainable as Stolte and others above point out.

We should be gaining a pick if Cruz leaves after this season. And picks if Davis and Wieters perform well next year and then leave via Free Agency. I am pretty sure DD planned to lose both his picks this season and not lose any next year.

[Guest]

I tend to agree with your line of thinking here. I also tend to think that the question "Have the Orioles Sacrificed too much to in order to win now?" can be answered yes in spite of your comments. This is where I am still unsure how I would answer. I do not think our sacrifice as you note has been too much in terms of talent that we moved for whatever reason. However, I do think that trading young talent and also losing picks is unsustainable as Stolte and others above point out.

If this was the NFL i would agree with you about losing draft picks. But in MLB it's nothing but a crap shoot. I'm OK with giving up a pick for Norris, Ubaldo and Cruz.

Cruz in one year will have more value then pick 55. Plus the Orioles can still sign Cruz might be more then 1 year.

Giving up picks for SP is more on the past G.M and failing to draft well.

[Stotle]

I hear Herm on repeat as I read this thread.

Obviously you need a balance between winning now and building for the future. However, some of the responses in this thread make me think that some fans would prefer to not win the division this year to improve the foundation for future seasons. You have to sit down at the table to have a chance to win.

I'll argue the opposite -- 14 years of losing have conditioned some to believe that a 4 year contract (that no other org would give) to Ubaldo Jimenez and hoping someone like Cruz is available in February is "going for it". If Baltimore actually "went for it" I'd have zero issue with anything it was doing vis-a-vis the future.

[Stotle]

We should be gaining a pick if Cruz leaves after this season. And picks if Davis and Wieters perform well next year and then leave via Free Agency. I am pretty sure DD planned to lose both his picks this season and not lose any next year.

Those will be supremely helpful for 2018-2020.

[atomic]

If this was the NFL i would agree with you about losing draft picks. But in MLB it's nothing but a crap shoot. I'm OK with giving up a pick for Norris, Ubaldo and Cruz.

Cruz in one year will have more value then pick 55. Plus the Orioles can still sign Cruz might be more then 1 year.

Giving up picks for SP is more on the past G.M and failing to draft well.

We gave up a second round pick and if he leaves after this season we get a first round pick. So we would actually be gaining picks by signing Curz for one year.