Caleb needs to come home

[atomic]

4 hours ago, weams said:

You and I both know this is fail. I'll enjoy the day he cuts him loose.  

Davis might outlast Elias.

[atomic]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Didn't Buck have to intervene because Wieters was being hazed?  Doesn't sound like someone with strong leadership skills.

I think you mean Trumbo. 

[sgillespie31]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Didn't Buck have to intervene because Wieters was being hazed?  Doesn't sound like someone with strong leadership skills.

This is a massive reach and a pointless dig at Wieters (or whomever you may have meant to specify). People with leadership skills can still be subjected to things like hazing, bullying, assault etc etc. 

That said, I actually agree that bringing in the type of gritty team first player like Caleb during a rebuild wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Edited January 1, 2020 by sgillespie31
Clarification

[Can_of_corn]

22 minutes ago, sgillespie31 said:

This is a massive reach and a pointless dig at Wieters (or whomever you may have meant to specify). People with leadership skills can still be subjected to things like hazing, bullying, assault etc etc. 

That said, I actually agree that bringing in the type of gritty team first player like Caleb during a rebuild wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

I'm going to disagree.  I can't see a person with tangible leadership skills still suffering from hazing after more than a year in the league.

I agree that bringing Caleb back wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, signing Davis to a 10/350M extension would be a lot worse for instance.  I don't see how it would help, unless you are going to pay him 500K to play behind AR in the minors.

[Roll Tide]

I am meh on Caleb returning. If he can help the young pitchers great but I think it’s overrated 

[wildcard]

I said  sign Caleb to a minor league contract and he can play at Norfolk.

That is what Elias is looking for.   I catcher to add depth in case of injury

Sisco and Severino are projected as the O's catcher this season.

If Caleb does sign a minor league contract with the O's he would share time with Wynns at Norfolk.

He would be essentially be a player coach to help the O's AAA pitching prospects.

Here is what Roch wrote in today's blog:

Quote

They keep trying to decide on a fourth catcher - and yes, Caleb Joseph remains a consideration - and are likely to bring in a veteran reliever on a minor league deal.

So this in not a new idea just one that has not been talked about lately on the OH.

[sgillespie31]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm going to disagree.  I can't see a person with tangible leadership skills still suffering from hazing after more than a year in the league.

I agree that bringing Caleb back wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, signing Davis to a 10/350M extension would be a lot worse for instance.  I don't see how it would help, unless you are going to pay him 500K to play behind AR in the minors.

Hazing has more to do with overal culture in sport and the mindset of those engaging in acts of hazing than it does the victim. 

Your argument is like saying, "I can't see a big imposing kid being bullied" yet it happens all the time, or "I can't see someone with martial arts skills getting mugged." That happens too. 

Life just isn't as simple as your argument wants to make it. "Amidst a long standing culture of hazing in sports, a group of older veterans hazed him as a sophomore so he must not have any leadership skills." That is essentially what you're saying. 

 

Now, we can make a few vague assumptions about the scenario, but they are just that: vague assumptions. We know he may or may not have spoken up about it to his management which is a hard, yet brave and responsible thing to do. In fact, you could even make a suggestion that he has more leadership skills for doing so not less. We also know he probably didn't physically fight back to the point of causing a brawl, suggesting what? That maybe he is weak? Or perhaps he kept his cool and showed great poise while under duress? We have absolutely no idea and insinuating that we do is pretty insulting to people who endure hazing and bullying everywhere.

Point is, it is a giant leap to make any conclusions about a persons leadership skills, toughness, or any other attributes based purely on whether not their manager may or may not have helped put an end to them being hazed early on in their career.

  I could get five guys together, we could pin you down or corner you until you put a tiara on your head. We could make you whether you wanted to or not. It wouldn't say much about you as a person or whether or not you can show leadership skills on a baseball field. It would say a heck of a lot more about us and the kind of culture that would make us feel inspired to try something bizarre like that, but you'd just be the guy with a tiara on his head whether it took five of us to convince you or twenty. 

I see the point you're trying to make here, I just think you used a poor example and one that is in poor taste to lots of people. Here in Canada, one of the toughest hockey players around was Theo Fluery, yet he endured vast amounts of bullying and even sexual assault from others in the hockey circles. Athletes are human and like all of us, they can be made into victims under the wrong circumstances no matter how strong, smart, or otherwise capable they might be.  Its a sad reality, but it is reality.

  Hazing might not be that bad, but the fact holds true: under the wrong (or right) circumstances almost anybody could be hazed, and i'm sure many players in pro sports have been. It doesn't make them poor leaders or invalidate them in any other way.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by sgillespie31
Spelling

[wildcard]

8 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I thought the O's had a bullpen coach? 

What does Caleb signing a minor contract have to do with being a bullpen coach?

[wildcard]

7 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

One of wildcard's stranger threads and that's saying something.

Why is it strange if its in Roch's blog today?

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, sgillespie31 said:

Hazing has more to do with overal culture in sport and the mindset of those engaging in acts of hazing than it does the victim. 

Your argument is like saying, "I can't see a big imposing kid being bullied" yet it happens all the time, or "I can't see someone with martial arts skills getting mugged." That happens too. 

Life just isn't as simple as your argument wants to make it. "Amidst a long standing culture of hazing in sports, a group of older veterans hazed him as a sophomore so he must not have any leadership skills." That is essentially what you're saying. 

 

Now, we can make a few vague assumptions about the scenario, but they are just that: vague assumptions. We know he may or may not have spoken up about it to his management which is a hard, yet brave and responsible thing to do. In fact, you could even make a suggestion that he has more leadership skills for doing so not less. We also know he probably didn't physically fight back to the point of causing a brawl, suggesting what? That maybe he is weak? Or perhaps he kept his cool and showed great poise while under duress? We have absolutely no idea and insinuating that we do is pretty insulting to people who endure hazing and bullying everywhere.

Point is, it is a giant leap to make any conclusions about a persons leadership skills, toughness, or any other attributes based purely on whether not their manager may or may not have helped put an end to them being hazed early on in their career.

  I could get five guys together, we could pin you down or corner you until you put a tiara on your head. We could make you whether you wanted to or not. It wouldn't say much about you as a person or whether or not you can show leadership skills on a baseball field. It would say a heck of a lot more about us and the kind of culture that would make us feel inspired to try something bizarre like that, but you'd just be the guy with a tiara on his head whether it took five of us to convince you or twenty. 

I see the point you're trying to make here, I just think you used a poor example and one that is in poor taste to lots of people. Here in Canada, one of the toughest hockey players around was Theo Fluery, yet he endured vast amounts of bullying and even sexual assault from others in the hockey circles. Athletes are human and like all of us, they can be made into victims under the wrong circumstances no matter how strong, smart, or otherwise capable they might be.  Its a sad reality, but it is reality.

  Hazing might not be that bad, but the fact holds true: under the wrong (or right) circumstances almost anybody could be hazed, and i'm sure many players in pro sports have been. It doesn't make them poor leaders or invalidate them in any other way.

 

 

 

 

Yea, but it isn't.  I'm not saying he showed up and was hazed and he didn't immediately handle the situation.  From what I read this took place over the place of two seasons.  He came into camp as the starting catcher and an established ML player.

I'm not sure what your fighting back comment is supposed to mean, you seem a bit focused on violence for some reason.  I have not heard anything about the situation being physical in nature.

As for your tiara example, if over a year later I couldn't convince them to stop putting a tiara on my head I wouldn't consider myself much of a leader.

 

[weams]

59 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I said  sign Caleb to a minor league contract and he can play at Norfolk.

That is what Elias is looking for.   I catcher to add depth in case of injury

Sisco and Severino are projected as the O's catcher this season.

If Caleb does sign a minor league contract with the O's he would share time with Wynns at Norfolk.

He would be essentially be a player coach to help the O's AAA pitching prospects.

Here is what Roch wrote in today's blog:

So this in not a new idea just one that has not been talked about lately on the OH.

And I said pick a different guy.  Just because he is different. 

[sgillespie31]

@Can_of_corn

 

Hazing and bullying are both a result of problematic psychosocial pressures in microcultures, locker rooms being a prime petridish for that kind of thing. Both involve violence at their worst (though probably and hopefully not in the case of Matt Wieters). The subject of fighting back was more an outcry of what exactly do you expect him to do? If he fights back to end the hazing, there are other critisisms someone looking to nitpick him could make about him. If you really want to pick someone apart for being a victim i'm sure you could find a way, that's the point.

  There's just a lot of evidence to suggest Weiters was a decent leader, and your counterargument is... That he was potentially hazed as a sophomore?

There's just so much else at play in these types of situations. Perhaps it was new players hazing him in year 2? Perhaps he was barely even hazed in year 1? Perhaps he felt forced to go along with it due to it being culturally accepted and him not wanting to risk upsetting his chance at a lucrative future in the game baseball? Perhaps it was just harmless pranks and Buck put a stop to it even though Weiters didn't even care? We have no idea. You are just looking for any straw to make your point,  and you can't find any more baseball centric ways to critisize Wieters' leadership skills so you'll judge someone for being hazed? Got it.

  Go right ahead, I obviously can't stop you, but your other posts are often quite well informed. I'm not used to this kind of ignorance. There's no point fighting about it though so i'll leave you to your views, which you are entitled to. You are a smart poster and I don't want to fight with you, so i'll just say this:

I hope the next time you endure an unpleasant experience at the hands of others, no one judges you for it. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by sgillespie31
Clarification

[Satyr3206]

19 minutes ago, sgillespie31 said:

@Can_of_corn

 

Hazing and bullying are both a result of problematic psychosocial pressures in microcultures, locker rooms being a prime petridish for that kind of thing. Both involve violence at their worst (though probably and hopefully not in the case of Matt Wieters). The subject of fighting back was more an outcry of what exactly do you expect him to do? If he fights back to end the hazing, there are other critisisms someone looking to nitpick him could make about him. If you really want to pick someone apart for being a victim i'm sure you could find a way, that's the point.

  There's just a lot of evidence to suggest Weiters was a decent leader, and your counterargument is... That he was potentially hazed as a sophomore?

There's just so much else at play in these types of situations. Perhaps it was new players hazing him in year 2? Perhaps he was barely even hazed in year 1? Perhaps he felt forced to go along with it due to it being culturally accepted and him not wanting to risk upsetting his chance at a lucrative future in the game baseball? Perhaps it was just harmless pranks and Buck put a stop to it even though Weiters didn't even care? We have no idea. You are just looking for any straw to make your point,  and you can't find any more baseball centric ways to critisize Wieters' leadership skills so you'll judge someone for being hazed? Got it.

  Go right ahead, I obviously can't stop you, but your other posts are often quite well informed. I'm not used to this kind of ignorance. There's no point fighting about it though so i'll leave you to your views, which you are entitled to. You are a smart poster and I don't want to fight with you, so i'll just say this:

I hope the next time you endure an unpleasant experience at the hands of others, no one judges you for it. 

Back in my day it was simple. I'll take a little crap for being the new guy. Then if you step over the line I whip your ass. That usually stops it.

[tntoriole]

I know Elias wants to sign another catcher.   I say “Big deal, who cares.”

I see little reason to sign a veteran catcher now or at any point.  As a fourth catcher, for goodness sake.    I certainly wouldn’t do it now....these types are literally a dime a dozen if needed at any point. 

And Caleb?   Pass.  I am not interested in old Orioles for this purpose.  But really I am fine with what we have right now for 2020.    But hey, go out and get Taylor Teagarden if you want. 

[sgillespie31]

33 minutes ago, Satyr3206 said:

Back in my day it was simple. I'll take a little crap for being the new guy. Then if you step over the line I whip your ass. That usually stops it.

Oh absolutely, i'm in the same boat.

My point is that if someone really wants to critisize a player for something as absurd as being hazed, then they will find a way to make that critisism no matter what.

Wieters could have,

A) Ask the perpitrators to stop (good luck)

B) fought back to end the hazing (as you would).

C) inform a superior

Or 

D) if he doesn't want to cause fallout from any of the above options, wait calmly for the hazing to end.

Or any combination of the above.

We don't know what he tried or even what happened (making this whole argument about judging Wieters based on this even more absurd), but Corn would find a way to nitpick any of the above options, had Wieters chosen them. He is after all, suggesting that because Buck intervened in hazing directed towards Wieters, Wieters therefore must not have any leadership skills as a ball player. There might be other reasons he does or does not have leadership skills, and better examples for either opinion probably exist.

Thus, its pointless to judge someone just for being hazed. Corn doesn't think Wieters was a good leader. That's fine, he is entitled to that opinion. I'm pointing out that just because Wieters was hazed doesn't make him a poor leader. Find someone on the baseball field, or something he would have more defined control over, and i'll happily critisize his leaderships skills, but saying he isn't a leader because he was hazed? That's a bias that is pretty easy to put holes into. Corn is a pretty smart poster, I think he just isn't a big Wieters fan and that bias took hold a little too strongly here, but I have no real idea.

My reaction to being hazed that badly would (and has been) similar to yours, but unfortunately it tends to be a lose lose kind of scenario, which is probably one of the reasons hazing is dying out.

Edited January 2, 2020 by sgillespie31