What have we learned so far?

[Ripken]

We've learned that no one in the warehouse cares about having a winning team any time soon.  Maybe there is a sale coming.  Maybe ownership really is super cheap.  Maybe Elias isn't the genius we hoped.  Whatever it is, as much as a complete rebuild was needed, this team is heading for a 5th horrid season in a row.  

[OriolesMagic83]

We've learned that Akin and Lowther are not major league starters.  Let's just keep throwing them out there and hope something changes.  They either need to go back to AA (not AAA) and work on the pitches or prepare to be middle relievers (probably of another MLB team).  I had really high hopes for Lowther, but his pitches don't seem to get ML hitters out.  He seems to be one of those pitchers who needs to have great control to get hitters out and he doesn;t have it any more. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

30 minutes ago, Ripken said:

We've learned that no one in the warehouse cares about having a winning team any time soon.  Maybe there is a sale coming.  Maybe ownership really is super cheap.  Maybe Elias isn't the genius we hoped.  Whatever it is, as much as a complete rebuild was needed, this team is heading for a 5th horrid season in a row.  

I know being an Orioles fan that things can get worse, but a sale of the team would probably be the best thing to get this team out from under the thumb of the Angelos family rule. 

[SteveA]

5 hours ago, Gentile4 said:

Please don't misunderstand my point, but if we cut Franco, then we're left with no power at 2B Urias, SS Martin, and whoever plays 3B. For all his warts, and there are many, he does have 32 XBH. Or does it not even matter at this point?

His contract is up after this year and I see no chance we want to re-sign him.  Are you really concerned about a power  dropoff in the last 52 games of a season where we aren't likely to win 60 games anyway?

[waynebug]

I always compare the orioles to my favorite national league team.

They have crummy corporate ownership.  They used to be owned by a billionaire playboy who spent freely.   Now they can't spend like the Dodgers or even the Padres now.  Orioles will never catch Yankees or Red Sox in payroll.

They have almost nothing from Latin America over the last 5 years because they were suspended for cheating.   The Orioles have just gotten involved with Elias since 2019.

Their fan base mostly cares about college football and their home town NFL team.  Baltimore cares a lot more about the Ravens.  Not so much the Terps.

One team stresses drafting/developing pitchers.  Even with all the risks associated with high school arms,   Obviously Baltimore does not.

At least our organization is doing a good job developing the pitchers they inherited.  Peralta was good for Norfolk tonight.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

23 minutes ago, SteveA said:

His contract is up after this year and I see no chance we want to re-sign him.  Are you really concerned about a power  dropoff in the last 52 games of a season where we aren't likely to win 60 games anyway?

I also think what the Orioles might lose in power from Franco they would gain in better defense at 3B and more team speed from his replacement(s). Since it's all but given that Franco isn't coming back in 2022, why not let another player get a chance that could make next year's team. 

[PeteCanes]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Very little to nothing that matters long term.

Other than Mullins is good

[Sports Guy]

7 hours ago, PeteCanes said:

Other than Mullins is good

Yea but we don’t know that yet.  He has been phenomenal this year and exceeding everyone’s expectations.  But we need to see him do it again before we can definitively say he is a major part of the future.  
 

The Os just spent the 5th pick on a CFer with an advanced bat.  Even if Mullins is for real, he may not be “for real” as an Oriole for the long term.

Means is kind of in the same boat.  While I trust that Means is going to be good long term more than I trust Mullins right now (due to pitching well prior to this season), he’s still hard to trust because of the injuries to his shoulder.  Need to see him get through a full season first before I think we can fully trust him. 
 

I think there are encouraging signs for a lot of players but there isn’t much, long term, that we are able to point to and say, yep that guy is part of our future for sure.

And then when you talk about guys who have failed this year, a lot/all of them were guys that were big question marks anyway.  Guys written onto the long term lineup card in pencil, not pen.

[SteveA]

10 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I also think what the Orioles might lose in power from Franco they would gain in better defense at 3B and more team speed from his replacement(s). Since it's all but given that Franco isn't coming back in 2022, why not let another player get a chance that could make next year's team. 

Oddly enough, it sure seems that Franco's defense has been way better since he came back from that DL stint.  Don't know why but he's made a ton of really good plays.

[Camden_yardbird]

13 hours ago, milbest77 said:

I have learned that Elias is sitting back collecting a paycheck. AR needs to be in Norfolk and they are clearly letting him wallow in Bowie to be cheap and manipulate his service time. Wait until Mancini goes to arbitration again and gets traded for a couple 16-year olds. And Mullins and Means will be asked to take “pay cuts” or be traded for a few baseball cards and a sack of marbles. 
 

I have said it before. Elias is here to cut payroll and eventually springboard to a better job.

I agree much of this may be true, what i disagree with is your stance on AR.  The minors is the minors so whether he is Bowie or Norfolk doesn't matter for service time. 

I have said it before, I think AR is in Bowie because they are second in their division and Norfolk is second to last in theirs.  He is there to win, and more importantly to become intimately familiar with the pitching skills of a bunch of pitchers he is going to have to usher into the big leagues.  He is there to learn what they look like when they are in the zone, and how to fix their struggles.

He is there to be seen as a leader for players like Vavra, Dorrian, Stowers, etc.

[Philip]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea but we don’t know that yet.  He has been phenomenal this year and exceeding everyone’s expectations.  But we need to see him do it again before we can definitively say he is a major part of the future.  
 

The Os just spent the 5th pick on a CFer with an advanced bat.  Even if Mullins is for real, he may not be “for real” as an Oriole for the long term.

Means is kind of in the same boat.  While I trust that Means is going to be good long term more than I trust Mullins right now (due to pitching well prior to this season), he’s still hard to trust because of the injuries to his shoulder.  Need to see him get through a full season first before I think we can fully trust him. 
 

I think there are encouraging signs for a lot of players but there isn’t much, long term, that we are able to point to and say, yep that guy is part of our future for sure.

And then when you talk about guys who have failed this year, a lot/all of them were guys that were big question marks anyway.  Guys written onto the long term lineup card in pencil, not pen.

You mention guys who have failed this year, and that a lot of them were big? Anyway. I think that removing the? In one direction or another is a benefit. I have problems with the guys who haven’t been given a worthwhile chance. Then I suppose we can argue about what constitutes “a worthwhile chance“, but we can all agree  Lowther has not had one, and now he is injured. Wells certainly should get more of an audition But he has already been sent back down, Zimmermann was injured, but I hope that when he comes back he’s here for the rest of the season, and so on.

I also agree with Tony that we should bring up just about anybody and everybody And see if we can find somebody who can be productive for a half season or so. I remember in 2012, Steve Johnson made an important contribution and then we never saw him again. There’s merit to looking for guys like that

[OriolesMagic83]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea but we don’t know that yet.  He has been phenomenal this year and exceeding everyone’s expectations.  But we need to see him do it again before we can definitively say he is a major part of the future.  
 

The Os just spent the 5th pick on a CFer with an advanced bat.  Even if Mullins is for real, he may not be “for real” as an Oriole for the long term.

Means is kind of in the same boat.  While I trust that Means is going to be good long term more than I trust Mullins right now (due to pitching well prior to this season), he’s still hard to trust because of the injuries to his shoulder.  Need to see him get through a full season first before I think we can fully trust him. 
 

I think there are encouraging signs for a lot of players but there isn’t much, long term, that we are able to point to and say, yep that guy is part of our future for sure.

And then when you talk about guys who have failed this year, a lot/all of them were guys that were big question marks anyway.  Guys written onto the long term lineup card in pencil, not pen.

I think that having multiple OF that can play CF is a good problem to have.  The O's of the early 90's had Anderson, Devereaux, and Finley and it seemed to work ok. 

[LA2]

13 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I also think what the Orioles might lose in power from Franco they would gain in better defense at 3B and more team speed from his replacement(s). Since it's all but given that Franco isn't coming back in 2022, why not let another player get a chance that could make next year's team. 

Good D at third is very important, but who are you thinking of that would be better than Franco there?

[Orioles0615]

16 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

The negativity here is bringing me down. Might need to take a break for a while. Go O's.

At this point that break feels like another 3 years.

 

18 hours ago, Camden_yardbird said:

If this is true, and Elias is 2.5 years into the rebuild he should probably be fired immediately.  If you haven't identified one position player in a rebuild after 2.5 years then you are talking about a 5-7 year rebuild and thats simply unacceptable whether you are a large market team or a small market team.

What is the OP question asking?  Who have we identified as part of the future?  Who have we identified as failures?  What are the Orioles doing well? What can the organization inaction build on (not pertaining to players) so like team building skills or pipelines (development tracks) that are working?

We have learned our OF depth is not as deep as we thought it may be.  Hayes, Santander, Diaz, Stewart all look fringy or at least undependably inconsistent.  

We have learned our INF depth was never there, and Elias is so-so at finding stop gaps or potential future contributors.

We have learned we have little SP depth and Elias is terrible at identifying stop gaps or future contributors.  We also learned this player development team can't elevate fringe level prospects to even passable.

We have learned we had little in the way of relief pitchers and that Elias is so-so (probably his best success) at identifying stop gaps and future contributors.

We have learned nothing about ownership over the last two years other than they have been cheap. This is the big one, because nothing matters if we don't know know that ownership will commit when the time comes.  The pirates in 2015 had a 98 win team with almost every major piece returning.  The ownership invested less than $10 million in offseason improvements, and it has been a steady decline since.  The Orioles ownership, which appears to have shifted to the Angelos sons, is an enigma, that up until now has shown no discernable information on how the future team will be treated, what kind of contracts they are willing to hand out, how much leeway they are really giving Elias (because we haven't seen a big FA acquition or extension, or star being traded).

 

I agree, hence while if next year we are in the same spot (which my guess is we will be) I want him held accountable. 

[Oriole1940]

I have learned this year, actually reinforced as to what I already knew, just how wide a gap the talent level is between the Orioles and their opponents in the AL East, and  other teams too, for that matter.  I honestly do not know what the answer is to narrowing that gap. other than just plain, dumb  luck. You would think by some element of Luck that  even if there is poor scouting, drafting, developing and trading, once in a while a player or two or three would turn out  to be above expectations.  I am still waiting.