What roles exist for Mateo and Frazier going forward?

[Jammer7]

1 minute ago, johnrambo said:

When we're in the ALCS and down by a run and a man on 3rd base less than 2 outs do you want Frazier at the plate or not? You bet your ass you want him at the plate. 

I don’t totally disagree, in comparison to some of the other young infielders we have. He does give a pro at bat. But we have to actually get to the ALCS first. The cost of his inability to make plays at 2B may well cost us a chance to even get there at this point. It hurts the pitchers, extends innings, and costs us wins. 

[Billy F-Face3]

I'm indifferent to Frazier. He has his good moments and he has his bad moments. Overall is all comes out to just what his WAR suggests. An average player who sometimes will give you above average moments. So I'm still taking a patient approach with how I form my opinion of him. 

 

I agree with what Tommy said about Urias. The fact that we still have Urias makes this discussion even more complicated to engage in because I would say that Urias is arguably the best of the 3 players here. 

But if I'm picking one rookie I want to focus on developing right now, I'd pick Westburg. So maybe that would shape the conversion just based on the process of elimination because you can only play 2 middle infielders at a time.

[johnrambo]

10 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

I don’t totally disagree, in comparison to some of the other young infielders we have. He does give a pro at bat. But we have to actually get to the ALCS first. The cost of his inability to make plays at 2B may well cost us a chance to even get there at this point. It hurts the pitchers, extends innings, and costs us wins. 

Frazier has the 3rd highest WPA on the team. Clutch hitting matters. 

[Bemorewins]

There appears to be a never ending cycle/discussion this season…

Half the fans want/clamor for said prospect and opine how he would be an improvement over said veteran pointing to his AAA numbers. Then said prospect comes up and has some “rookie struggles” trying to figure things out at this level. Then the other half of the fanbase opines about how said prospect is no good/can’t play/overrated etc.

IMO - the Orioles are doing the best that they can to manage a delicate situation between introducing a bunch of highly touted/talented prospects/young players/rookies vs trying to win/compete/contend. 

Rookies make mistake and struggle at times, it’s called “growing pains”. But it makes things worse because some of fans have built up these unrealistic expectations in their mind about how guys will do when they get here. Most guys who come to the show are not finished products, they take time to get settled in/adjust/figure things out.

[johnrambo]

Just now, Bemorewins said:

There appears to be a never ending cycle/discussion this season…

Half the fans want/clamor for said prospect and opine how he would be an improvement over said veteran pointing to his AAA numbers. Then said prospect comes up and has some “rookie struggles” trying to figure things out at this level. Then the other half of the fanbase opines about how said prospect is no good/can’t play/overrated etc.

IMO - the Orioles are doing the best that they can to manage a delicate situation between introducing a bunch of highly touted/talented prospects/young players/rookies vs trying to win/compete/contend. 

Rookies make mistake and struggle at times, it’s called “growing pains”. But it makes things worse because some of fans have built up these unrealistic expectations in their mind about how guys will do when they get here. Most guys who come to the show are not finished products, they take time to get settled in/adjust/figure things out.

Pretty much. We are in a pennant race. We have some decent quality veterans who are never going to be stars or anything more than average MLB players. Frazier being the most prominent example. We then bring up the kids from AA and AAA. Those kids then proceed to play worse than guys like Frazier. Then the pro Frazier crowd feels vindicated. Meanwhile the pro prospect groups comes up with an endless amount of excuses and pulls more explanations out of their ass than we thought was ever possible. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Rookies make mistake and struggle at times, it’s called “growing pains”. But it makes things worse because some of fans have built up these unrealistic expectations in their mind about how guys will do when they get here. Most guys who come to the show are not finished products, they take time to get settled in/adjust/figure things out.

Vets make mistakes and struggle at times.

[CaptainRedbeard]

Mateo can have a clear bench role as a pinch runner and occasional SS v. LHP, particularly for games started by Gibson or any more contact/GB-focused SP we get at the deadline. That may not be worth it with our roster crunch so I’m not losing sleep if he’s the odd man out, but teams do often carry bench guys like that in September + playoffs.

Given his defense this year, Frazier really doesn’t offer anything with both Urias and Westburg here other than a lefty contact bat off the bench. That’s nice to have as a pinch hitter on a playoff team but IMO not moreso than an elite baserunner like Mateo.

Mateo can be our bench pinch runner / defense guy until we call up top 100 prospect Enrique Bradley Jr. in Sept 2025. 

[btdart20]

I hope the trade deadline clarifies the IF roles and playing time.  With at least 6 IF options currently (and another 3 at various points making their AAA case in Norby, Mayo, and Prieto).  

Frazier - The biggest thing Frazier has to offer is his low whiff% and K%.  There is value to putting the ball in play.  However, his overall Babip is ridiculously low at .230 which obviously impacts his BA/OBP.  I do think there's some hope here but the low HH% tempers that hope a bit (even though that's normal for his hit profile).  Frazier is a solid bat to have at the plate in certain situations, but I think we have to explore other options at this point too.  With how we like to play the LH/RH matchups, I think Frazier's roster spot is secure even if the splits say otherwise (.240 Babip against RHP notwithstanding).  Urias' Babip against RHP is .388 for comparison.  Are we taking bets on which direction these guys top line stats go in the future?  Who's the buy low and who's the sell high?

Mateo - He has basically been benched at this point.  In July he only has 15 PAs and 4 GS (one he didn't finish).  IMO, pinch runner and late inning defensive replacement plays to his strengths.  

Which role/skill set is more valuable?  The low K% LHH pinch-hitter type or the speed/defense late inning specialist?  I suspect it's the speed/defense guy who has more value (especially if there are other LHH options even if he's not an IF).

A few additional thoughts:

* Both of these guys can be pieces, but not core.  More "pieces" will limit playing time for others.  Do we have space for "pieces"?  

* 2023 is not 2022.  Meaning, placeholders add no value in a playoff run even if they're paid $8m.  We need to be making movement in some direction.  Either by having the spot on the 26-man roster contributing to the W/Ls this year (which Frazier/Mateo haven't shown consistently) or rolling on the throttle for next year at the ML level (assuming the rest of the offense can carry the load).  

* I suspect the platoons we've seen are intentional decisions (i.e. why Elias wanted a LHH 2B) as much as they are a result of players not capitalizing on their opportunities.

* Like the vast majority of us, I hope we have more clarity at the trade deadline.  There are teams in need of 2B/SS/3B.  There are teams in need of LHH.  There are teams in need of prospects.  We have answers to each of these needs even if they aren't top tier in their particular demographic (other than prospects, we got those).  I suspect Urias might be the IF trade chip at the ML level with the most marketable value.  

* @Jammer7's concerns are legit if true and are a factor in decision making.

[Bemorewins]

12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Vets make mistakes and struggle at times.

They indeed do. But often times they don’t make the mistakes as often do to their experience and comfort level having had so many reps in various situations. Or at least that is the hope. 

For example, Westburg mistakenly threw home on Friday night against the Marlins instead of taking the easy out at 1B. That is a play that Frazier probably knows not to make and doesn’t make.

But IMO it is to be expected that young players will more often than vets do some foolish/boneheaded things. They are young and growing/learning.

But there are also plays (especially defensively) that Westburg can make and has made, that Frazier with his aging/very limited ability could not dream of making. 

There’s a trade off.

[Bemorewins]

19 minutes ago, johnrambo said:

Pretty much. We are in a pennant race. We have some decent quality veterans who are never going to be stars or anything more than average MLB players. Frazier being the most prominent example. We then bring up the kids from AA and AAA. Those kids then proceed to play worse than guys like Frazier. Then the pro Frazier crowd feels vindicated. Meanwhile the pro prospect groups comes up with an endless amount of excuses and pulls more explanations out of their ass than we thought was ever possible. 

Just to be clear. I am not in either camp play all young guys/prospects vs. play all vets.

I believe the O’s are doing their best to walk the type rope of mixing the two. 

I don’t think it’s very likely probably to have a team filled with mostly 1st and 2nd year players (despite many of them being very talented and filled with tremendous potential) and expect to be better than teams like the who have experienced/excellent players in their prime. Many of our guys are learning what it takes to win/succeed at this level.

[johnrambo]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

Just to be clear. I am not in either camp play all young guys/prospects vs. play all vets.

I believe the O’s are doing their best to walk the type rope of mixing the two. 

I don’t think it’s very likely probably to have a team filled with mostly 1st and 2nd year players (despite many of them being very talented and filled with tremendous potential) and expect to be better than teams like the who have experienced/excellent players in their prime. Many of our guys are learning what it takes to win/succeed at this level.

I learn towards the pro veteran groups because we are a 95 win team. If we were a 65 win team I'd be decidedly in the play the kids camp. See what they can do because it's a lost season anyways. I'm not anti prospect, but I'm very short leash. Play them for a few weeks and if they hold their own continue to play them. But if they struggle send them down. If you can play, then put em in. 

[Hank Scorpio]

1 minute ago, johnrambo said:

I learn towards the pro veteran groups because we are a 95 win team. If we were a 65 win team I'd be decidedly in the play the kids camp. See what they can do because it's a lost season anyways. I'm not anti prospect, but I'm very short leash. Play them for a few weeks and if they hold their own continue to play them. But if they struggle send them down. If you can play, then put em in. 

Chuck these labels and just play the most talented players. 

[johnrambo]

Just now, Hank Scorpio said:

Chuck these labels and just play the most talented players. 

What if the more "talented" players are worse players right now? Santandar doesn't have extreme talent. He's just an experienced veteran who is in his prime. Kjerstad has way more "talent" than Tony, but gun to my head Santandar is a better player right now. 

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

They indeed do. But often times they don’t make the mistakes as often do to their experience and comfort level having had so many reps in various situations. Or at least that is the hope. 

For example, Westburg mistakenly threw home on Friday night against the Marlins instead of taking the easy out at 1B. That is a play that Frazier probably knows not to make and doesn’t make.

But IMO it is to be expected that young players will more often than vets do some foolish/boneheaded things. They are young and growing/learning.

But there are also plays (especially defensively) that Westburg can make and has made, that Frazier with his aging/very limited ability could not dream of making. 

There’s a trade off.

I don't trust Frazier to make a play at second.

[Bemorewins]

9 minutes ago, johnrambo said:

I learn towards the pro veteran groups because we are a 95 win team. If we were a 65 win team I'd be decidedly in the play the kids camp. See what they can do because it's a lost season anyways. I'm not anti prospect, but I'm very short leash. Play them for a few weeks and if they hold their own continue to play them. But if they struggle send them down. If you can play, then put em in. 

I figured that was the case, you’ve sort of been kind of clear about that.