John Means - Playoff Starter

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, DirtyBird said:

My argument is that Means was more effective last night than Grayson was on Thursday.

Are you arguing otherwise, because Grayson had more K’s?

How many of those strikes were 2 strike foul balls? That hurt him much more than it helped. Maybe the game Adley was calling was part of the problem too.

Grayson threw a higher percentage of strikes.

Is it your argument that pitchers should be throwing pitches that hitters can more easily square up and put into play?

 

[Aristotelian]

Looking at the IP leaders, I'd say the majority are high K guys, but there are a good number of below average K guys in the mix. Logan Webb is #1 in IP with just under 9 K/9. The extreme outlier is Mikolas (#11) with 122 K/187 IP. Gibson and Corbin are a couple of others. In short, I think either strategy can work. The most important factor is command, but that is difficult to quantify. 

[wildcard]

44 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You are the one making the claim.

Shouldn't it fall upon you to provide evidence?

Nope

There is a lot of history here that says that trying to prove anything to you is a waste of time.

Edited September 24, 2023 by wildcard

[Billy F-Face3]

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

OK, stick with me here for a second.

Means threw 96 pitches, 65 of which were strikes.

Grayson thew threw 99 pitches, 73 of which were strikes.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue because you practically supported his point. Under those pitch statistics is the fact that Grayson made it 5 innings. Means made it 7.1 (throwing less pitches). 

[dystopia]

58 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Fewer pitches.

 

Can you show evidence to support this claim?  I know it sounds super obvious but is it?  

There was this pitcher called Greg Maddux, perhaps you’ve heard of him?

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Looking at the IP leaders, I'd say the majority are high K guys, but there are a good number of below average K guys in the mix. Logan Webb is #1 in IP with just under 9 K/9. The extreme outlier is Mikolas (#11) with 122 K/187 IP. Gibson and Corbin are a couple of others. In short, I think either strategy can work. The most important factor is command, but that is difficult to quantify. 

You talked about IP..what about the quality of those innings?

Gibson had thrown a lot of innings but how much quality has there been?

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue because you practically supported his point. Under those pitch statistics is the fact that Grayson made it 5 innings. Means made it 7.1 (throwing less pitches). 

It’s one start. It means nothing, literally nothing.

Project those starts out over a longer period of time.

Which starter would you expect to be more successful? The one throwing more strikes, missing more bats and getting more Ks or the one who is dependent upon luck? 
 

Most of this is elementary school math that simply can’t be argued against, at least intelligently.

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, dystopia said:

There was this pitcher called Greg Maddux, perhaps you’ve heard of him?

Maddux got his share of Ks and he had 15 years of a BB rate of 1.5 or lower and his career BB rate was 1.8.

And for most of his career, his swingstr% was at or above league average and for his career, he was a little under league average in that stat but that was mostly pushed down by the last few years of his career, where his missed bats really dropped.  And those years were some of the worst of his career as well.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Sports Guy

[DirtyBird]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Maddux got his share of Ks and he had 15 years of a BB rate of 1.5 or lower and his career BB rate was 1.8.

 

Greg Maddux career K rate was 16.5% and BB rate 4.9%

Means last night: 16.7% and 4.2%

[Sports Guy]

Just now, DirtyBird said:

Greg Maddux career K rate was 16.5% and BB rate 4.9%

Means last night: 16.7% and 4.2%

And?

[DirtyBird]

24 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Grayson threw a higher percentage of strikes.

Is it your argument that pitchers should be throwing pitches that hitters can more easily square up and put into play?

 

My argument is that it is dumb to not watch a game, and evaluate performance based on one stat.

But how many of Grayson's strikes were fouled off 2 strike pitches? Are they more advantageous to the pitcher or opponent?

[btdart20]

28 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How much of that is because of hitters changing their approach?

No clue.  But yeah it’s a variable. I was just tossing some relevant data on the board for context.  There are different types within those trends too.

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

Greg Maddux career K rate was 16.5% and BB rate 4.9%

Means last night: 16.7% and 4.2%

And the league rates for context?

[Aristotelian]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You talked about IP..what about the quality of those innings?

Gibson had thrown a lot of innings but how much quality has there been?

Well, that's changing the question but it's a great point. Based on a quick look at the ERA leaders you have a similar mix of majority high K guys but plenty of a pitch to contact guys. So I'd say the same, that either strategy can work with good execution. Of course I would rather be able to strike guys out than not. 

 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Well, that's changing the question but it's a great point. Based on a quick look at the ERA leaders you have a similar mix of majority high K guys but plenty of a pitch to contact guys. So I'd say the same, that either strategy can work with good execution. Of course I would rather be able to strike guys out than not. 

 

How are you defining pitch to contact guys?