This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy

[RZNJ]

Moises Chace.  Good stuff but can’t throw strikes.

Jackson Baumeister.   High draft pick.   Can’t throw strikes.

Within a month of being traded Chace gets bumped to AA, has the best start of his career, and all of a sudden Baumeister is a strike thrower.

13. Jackson Baumeister, RHP, Rays

Team: High-A Bowling Green (South Atlantic)
Age: 22

Why He’s Here: 1-0, 0.00, 7 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 11 SO

The Scoop: The Rays were two games above .500 at the end of July, but their decision to trade away big league talent seems like a reasonable one with a month of hindsight. Tampa Bay has slid to three games under .500, but they would need to have made a significant step forward to be contending for a wild card spot in a league where being 11 games above .500 earns the final spot. And picking up talents like Baumeister are a potentially useful payoff. Since becoming a Ray, Baumeister is 2-0, 1.13 with a 35-to-4 strikeout ratio in six appearances and 24 innings. (JC)

 

9. Moises Chace, RHP, Phillies

Team: Double-A Reading (Eastern)
Age: 21

Why He’s Here: 1-0, 0.00, 6 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 13 SO, 0 HR

The Scoop: The Phillies acquired Chace from the Orioles alongside Seth Johnson in exchange for Gregory Soto at the trade deadline. Chace has been very strong since joining the Phillies organization and threw his best start to date on Saturday. Chace tossed six scoreless innings allowing one hit, striking out 13 of 19 batters. After Chace allowed a hit to Rafael Flores with two outs in the bottom of the first he retired 16 consecutive batters to close his outing. Mixing a four-seam fastball at 94-96 mph, a low-80s sweeper and a low-80s changeup, Chace has three above-average shapes that all rate as above-average pitches per stuff+. (GP) 

 

Edited September 3 by RZNJ

[Moose Milligan]

That's annoying, but for all we can do to get guys and turn them around or make them into someone that's a contributor to a winning team/org, (Bautista, Bradish, Suarez, etc) we're not going to get it right 100% of the time.  We're bound to trade a guy or release a guy who goes on and finds success somewhere else.  

I agree it's frustrating but it's to be expected.  No one bats 1.000 on making trades where they get the better end of the deal...or the guys traded leave a team having issues with strikeouts, command, whatever...and get coached up in their new organization.

[Tony-OH]

Well, it takes talent to get a guy like Eflin and I guess Soto. I said when the trades happened that Chace could be the best of all of them that were moved.

Their success in Tamps' system does make me continue to question the Orioles pitching development though.

[HowAboutThat]

It remains to be seen whether these guys will have meaningful MLB success, but I don’t think there’s any doubt that the team needs to continually evaluate how it develops pitching. It is true we’re not going to hit bat 1000 on draft picks/trades but we sure better do better than we are doing.

Edited September 3 by HowAboutThat

[Sports Guy]

First Elias is accused of hoarding prospects.  Now people are upset that he traded prospects to get players to help win now. 

Sometimes guys don’t work within your system. Sometimes a player can be in one system and be a failure and other times, you are the team that turns them around.

Being upset over a SSS of outings as if it’s proof or evidence of anything is absurd and short sighted.

 

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Well, it takes talent to get a guy like Eflin and I guess Soto. I said when the trades happened that Chace could be the best of all of them that were moved.

Their success in Tamps' system does make me continue to question the Orioles pitching development though.

That’s the issue. When you see pitchers immediately improve upon leaving our organization, it really makes you wonder if our organization knows what it’s doing.  

By the way, Chace has thrown more pitches and more innings in each of his four outings for Philly than he ever did this year as an Oriole.  So, they don’t baby prospects the way we do.   Baumeister’s two starts for Tampa were more innings than he ever threw for us, though the pitch counts weren’t as high as a number of outings here.  He’s just been way more pitch efficient.  
 

[LookitsPuck]

I'd be very careful with over indexing on 5 appearances for Chace in the Phillies system. Especially since he had 4 walks in his 2nd to last start.

That said, it is interesting that the Phils are turning up the number of innings he's going. They're having him exclusively be a starter thus far. The O's had him going 2-4 IP stints as a starter/reliever. 

Baumeister is the one I'm irked about. I didn't want to lose him, but I do understand having to give up quality to get quality in Eflin. Even still, it is concerning to see them drastically turn around his control issues. It reads very similar to the Arrieta to Cubs trade and having his walk rate fall off a cliff the next year and even in the same year drop. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

That’s the issue. When you see pitchers immediately improve upon leaving our organization, it really makes you wonder if our organization knows what it’s doing.  

By the way, Chace has thrown more pitches and more innings in each of his four outings for Philly than he ever did this year as an Oriole.  So, they don’t baby prospects the way we do.   Baumeister’s two starts for Tampa were more innings than he ever threw for us, though the pitch counts weren’t as high as a number of outings here.  He’s just been way more pitch efficient.  
 

Hate the way the Os baby pitchers.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Hate the way the Os baby pitchers.

To me the best part is that Elias admits they don't have evidence that their approach reduces injury.

[LookitsPuck]

Just now, Frobby said:

That’s the issue. When you see pitchers immediately improve upon leaving our organization, it really makes you wonder if our organization knows what it’s doing.  

By the way, Chace has thrown more pitches and more innings in each of his four outings for Philly than he ever did this year as an Oriole.  So, they don’t baby prospects the way we do.   Baumeister’s two starts for Tampa were more innings than he ever threw for us, though the pitch counts weren’t as high as a number of outings here.  He’s just been way more pitch efficient.  
 

If we look at Chace, he started 9 games for the O's and was a reliever in 8. He's been a starter in all 5 in the Phils org. 

His cadence with relieving/starting is interesting. For whatever reason, they didn't view him as a traditional starter.

Baumeister is much different. He was viewed and deployed as a traditional starter. Now, I get it's only a handful of games, but he is going deeper *and* he has better control. The walk rate has fallen off a cliff comparatively. He hasn't had any of those stretches in his time with the O's system this year. Although, he did have back to back 4 IP stints only walking 1 batter. And him going deeper doesn't have to do with the O's babying him re: pitch counts. He's actually had plenty of outings with ~70+ pitches w/ the O's. With the Rays, he hasn't went over 69. 

Honestly, it might be a pitch mix thing w/ Baumeister. I'm very curious how he went from walking 13 batters in his last 6 starts in the O's org to only 4 w/ the Rays in 6. 

 

[OriolesMagic83]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

To me the best part is that Elias admits they don't have evidence that their approach reduces injury.

I don't really see much evidence that the O's/Elias know what they're doing as far as developing pitchers.  Please don't point to Grayson because I think that's more a point of the young man's overwhelming natural talent overcoming the O's ineffective instruction.  Elias/Sig definitely left the pitching development hard drive in Houston.  As I've said before, if you can't build it, steal it.  The O's need to get some help from outside the organization because they are sorely lacking in developing pitching.

[interloper]

32 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

To me the best part is that Elias admits they don't have evidence that their approach reduces injury.

I don't think there's evidence either way, is what he's saying. 

[Greg Pappas]

I think there are two things at work here:

1) We typically do not draft pitching in higher rounds, so we bring in lesser talents in that stream.  Baumeister was a 2nd rounder, and it seems Tampa is doing a better job with him in a SSS. The International pitching talent stream is still far off and hard to judge, though Chace's SSS success with Philly is worth watching.

2) Our pitching development staff has thus far been spotty in harnessing and refining the talent that we do get, with notable exceptions (Bradish, Bautista, Coulombe, Perez, & Cano.) For those guys, we should get major credit.  

Overall, it would be wise to take a fair, unbiased view of our pitching development staff and see if changes may be worth exploring.  If Elias thinks we're good as is, then we'll see how it plays out.  
 

EDITED:  I've revised my original post, to convey that we have had more successes, as Moose mentions later in the thread... Bautista, Suarez and Coulombe (curse my memory!) 

Edited September 4 by Greg Pappas

[interloper]

I dunno, we've turned around our fair share of pitchers under the Elias regime, too. 

To me it's not like the pre-Elias years where it seemed like damn near every pitcher that left the org was immediately better. 

[LookitsPuck]

1 minute ago, interloper said:

I dunno, we've turned around our fair share of pitchers under the Elias regime, too. 

To me it's not like the pre-Elias years where it seemed like damn near every pitcher that left the org was immediately better. 

We've turned around major league ready/already major leaguers re: the bullpen. But we haven't showed any ability to draft and develop starters (or relievers, for that matter) and have them be effective in the majors, yet. 

There's only *1* pitcher that Elias drafted that made it to the majors, and that's Connor Gillispie....with the Guardians in only 3 games. And now he's back to the minors.