Still think this team didn't choke under pressure?

[baltfan]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think they are swinging at pitches they were not taught to swing at.  You can't tell me that Cowser was instructed to swing at the pitch that broke his hand.

I also think they are taking pitches that not borderline strikes and falling behind in the count.

I also think that the difference between the ABS system and actual umps is part of the issue and that probably needs to be addressed in some fashion.

The middle sentence is a training issue. 

The ABS system only really explains guys like Mayo and Holliday.  Part of the problem is the team has guys assume that the umpires in the MLB will get all of the calls correct.  If you get an ump that has a wider zone, they can't adjust.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, baltfan said:

The middle sentence is a training issue. 

The ABS system only really explains guys like Mayo and Holliday.  Part of the problem is the team has guys assume that the umpires in the MLB will get all of the calls correct.  If you get an ump that has a wider zone, they can't adjust.  

A training issue is still an issue with executing the strategy not the strategy in and of itself.

[Tony-OH]

9 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Add to that there needs to be a serious examination of how they are coaching hitting prospects in the minors seeing prospect after prospect struggle adjusting to MLB pitching. I think it's more than just bad luck and it needs to be addressed so we're not waiting months or even a year for a prospect to start hitting.

I have to agree here. Something is amiss. Uber prospects like Mayo and Holliday should not hit like pitchers when they arrive in the majors. We all expects some bumps, but the Orioles have seen almost every prospect really struggle at times early in their careers after hitting will in the minors. 

Even Gunnar, Westburg, Cowser and Adley had to basically learn at the major league level how to hit. Yes, they had different levels or struggles, but I was honestly amazed at how poorly Holliday and Mayo hit at the major league level.

 

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

I have to agree here. Something is amiss. Uber prospects like Mayo and Holliday should not hit like pitchers when they arrive in the majors. We all expects some bumps, but the Orioles have seen almost every prospect really struggle at times early in their careers after hitting will in the minors. 

Even Gunnar, Westburg, Cowser and Adley had to basically learn at the major league level how to hit. Yes, they had different levels or struggles, but I was honestly amazed at how poorly Holliday and Mayo hit at the major league level.

 

Holliday was advertised as a guy with a 70 hit tool.  It is insane how poorly he is at putting the bat on the ball.  With him, I will say there is the possibility that his father is driving some of the approach issues.  It was obvious to me he had an issue with his leg kick.  Finally, it seems like he is changing that.  I would like to know when he was being told to make a change.

[Tony-OH]

7 hours ago, foxfield said:

This is a post from a frustrated fan and not one from an intelligent baseball man.  Which, I believe you are.

The Orioles have now been losers in 10 straight playoff games and that is a huge source of everyone's frustration.  We are prepared for where lift off is going and we haven't gone anywhere.

There are plenty of things to address and there are quite a few things to be concerned about going forward.  As a fan, I have to believe that everyone from the owner to the ball boys will take time to assess the failure of being swept out of the playoffs...at home...for the second year in a row.

But it is assine to brand players across the board as trash and worthless talents and everyone here knows it.  The reasons we got swept out last year and caused fear that it would be repeated was pitching.  But the Orioles just pitched two beautiful games and STILL lost.

The reasons they got swept this year was they swung the bats like a high school team scared that they couldn't hit the Royals pitching and they were pretty much proved right.

But this team still was the first Oriole team to qualify for the playoffs in back to back years in 27 freaking years.  That is not enough.  But it IS a damn good start.

Instead of throwing the entire organization into the trash, perhaps with some time to cool down, we can intelligently look at things that need to be changed.  Everyone in the organization needs to do a better job.  It's great to win more games than 28 teams over the last two years, but it absolutely stinks to have an 0-4 playoff record, at home no less, to show for it.  That needs to change.

Does that mean new coaches?  I think you have to look at everything.  Does it mean the owner needs to spend?  Yes, but spending doesn't guarantee anything.  Does it mean the GM needs to do a better job to get this group to the next level...whether in acquiring or developing talent?  Yes, it absolutely does.   

As for the manager?  I don't know.  I have never really been in love with Hyde.  But I don't know too many teams that have fired their manager after two seasons like the Orioles have just produced.  Wasn't he manager of the year last year?

This team went from playing loose and winning almost with ease to playing tight and seemingly playing as if they knew they would lose.  They have dominated the AL East for 2 years.

So yes, there is much to question.   And those questions will certainly be debated here and hopefully by the Orioles.  A straight maintaining of the status quo would be a mistake.  I don't think anyone disagrees with that.  But sir with all due respect this is a bad take and a bad assessment of the last two years and of the current Oriole Franchise.  And it isn't pollyanish to say so.

The anger and frustration we all feel is real.  You didn't even touch on how the Ticket Office basically screwed every single person who renewed their plan and bought tickets and paid huge fees, only to have people sit beside them that paid 1/3 or less for the same seat.  So yeah, tonight we all feel cheated.  By the Owner, the Front Office, the Team and the staff.

The sun will still come up tomorrow and there is work to be done.   Lets dig in and get started.

I don't believe I called any player trash nor did I say to throw the whole organization in the trash. We really don't disagree that much on the state of the organization.

Saying that, the hitting philosophy has to go.

The frustration comes from expectations than anything. This team played so poorly since about late June and yes injuries had something to do with that, but it also was one of the worse teams with hitting with RISP. Yesterday, when they got the bases loaded with no outs, I thought to myself, "They have us just where they want us."

Of course Santander, who is one of the bigger choke artists in these situations, pops out to 1st base, then Cowser strikes out on a pitch that literally hit him. Adley then did Adley things and got out so the team scored nothing.

But that was this team in a microcosm. They could not handle pressure and they're hitting style never changed in situations. They did not have productive at bats by moving runners over or getting runners in from 3rd base with less than two outs because they had the same, swing from the heels, upper cut approach.

There is a time to do damage and a time to have a productive at bat to help the team. This team's hitting philosophy certainly did not make adjustments and it showed.

The entire hitting philosophy on this team needs to be replaced and new voices are needed. They also need a real MOO bat, and have to move on from Santander and Mountcastle at the very least.

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, JR Oriole said:

 Cowser striking out with the bases loaded and 1 out on a pitch that breaks his hand because it is so inside is the perfect symbol for everything that is wrong with what we do. He was swinging no matter where that pitch was going.

 

Absolutely. Cowser had made up his mind that he was swinging on that. Maybe analytics told him the pitchers throws a certain pitch and strike more times than not, but instead of see ball, hit ball approach, Cowser swung at a pitch that would have put the Orioles ahead with a hit by pitch. 

Look at how Salvatore Perez took a similar pitch earlier in the game. He turned in and took it off his elbow guard. That's a professional way to take that.

This team has too much hitting talent to perform the way they do. There is too much guessing whcih is probably based on analytics. But pitchers and other teams know how much the Orioles guess due to this and they pitch them differently than the "analytics" would suggest which leads to those horrible swings.

[turtlebowl]

I mentioned this once before but if you follow high end D1 softball the game has changed dramatically because the pitching is so dominate.  The theory is, you aren't going to score a bunch of runs by stringing singles together so most top programs only recruit athletes with game changing power or speed.  The speed aspect is important because you can turn a single into a double by stealing so now it only takes 2 hits to score a run instead of 3.  

The O's lower minors seem to be stacked with guys that can steal bases so maybe that will be the change in philosophy moving forward.  

It is just a thought but maybe the organization see's the pitching trend that is dominating because of the bullpen usage and OBP and runs scored across the board are down.  So stack your team with power and or speed and not much else matters.

Edited 4 hours ago by turtlebowl

[baltfan]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't believe I called any player trash nor did I say to throw the whole organization in the trash. We really don't disagree that much on the state of the organization.

Saying that, the hitting philosophy has to go.

The frustration comes from expectations than anything. This team played so poorly since about late June and yes injuries had something to do with that, but it also was one of the worse teams with hitting with RISP. Yesterday, when they got the bases loaded with no outs, I thought to myself, "They have us just where they want us."

Of course Santander, who is one of the bigger choke artists in these situations, pops out to 1st base, then Cowser strikes out on a pitch that literally hit him. Adley then did Adley things and got out so the team scored nothing.

But that was this team in a microcosm. They could not handle pressure and they're hitting style never changed in situations. They did not have productive at bats by moving runners over or getting runners in from 3rd base with less than two outs because they had the same, swing from the heels, upper cut approach.

There is a time to do damage and a time to have a productive at bat to help the team. This team's hitting philosophy certainly did not make adjustments and it showed.

The entire hitting philosophy on this team needs to be replaced and new voices are needed. They also need a real MOO bat, and have to move on from Santander and Mountcastle at the very least.

Who is the real MOO bat though?  I can't think of one other than Soto available.  I am all in on Soto, but I don't think the Orioles will even sniff him.  Absent Soto, who do you look to acquire?

I agree that it is time to move on from Tony and Mounty, but I do think you are a little harsh on Tony.  He has won a number of games for this team in the clutch.  He is just prone to cold spells.  

[Moose Milligan]

16 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

 

This team has too much hitting talent to perform the way they do.  

Maybe the hitting talent isn't as good as we think it is.  

 

[Hank Scorpio]

I too was *this* pissed off yesterday. I'm sympathetic. But the reality of the situation is that Kansas City played out of their minds defensively and baseball happened. 

Now, this was a microcosm of the second half of the season and that's just a fact. They dealt with injuries, just like every team does... they just didn't deal with them very effectively. I'm not sure if casting blame upon the hitting coaches or Hyde really holds any water for me.

But I understand the desire for a scapegoat.

It was REALLY hard to watch batter after batter trying to hit a 13 run home run on pitches that weren't really all that close to the strike zone. They were way out of their lanes and it was patently obvious that panic was setting in. I felt like it was a basketball game and Hyde needed to call a timeout or something. Like they needed to be snapped out of it maybe by something drastic like, oh, putting Jackson Holliday in there for an at bat in an important spot. 

They hit a lot of balls at guys, they swung at bunch of BS repeatedly. I saw it from Mountcastle, Santander, Henderson, Cowser (embarrassingly so), McCann during game 1, Rutschman too. 

The only thing I could maybe blame Hyde for is not successfully alleviating the panic. Baseball's different though... I'm just a slapdick fan, I have no idea what the realities of his job are. But that lineup needed to find a way to relax and the further the game went the more they freaked out. It was the opposite of a loose dugout. It was fear, panic and foreboding doom. Is it even possible to snap that group out of it? I dunno. The veterans were the ones (other than Mullins) that were pressing the most. I think I would have found a way to get Holliday or Kjerstad some meaningful at bats. Yeah, maybe that's Monday morning quarterbacking. Maybe they would have reacted the same way the rest of them did. 

They couldn't have been worse...

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Hank Scorpio

[Sports Guy]

This thread is certainly something 

[Bemorewins]

14 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Who is the real MOO bat though?  I can't think of one other than Soto available.  I am all in on Soto, but I don't think the Orioles will even sniff him.  Absent Soto, who do you look to acquire?

I agree that it is time to move on from Tony and Mounty, but I do think you are a little harsh on Tony.  He has won a number of games for this team in the clutch.  He is just prone to cold spells.  

Is Pete Alonso a real MOO bat? Would you rather have home than Santander or Mountcastle? How do you feel about Alex Bregman? Rhys Hoskins (has an opt out)? Willy Adames? Christian Walker?

I bring up these names because they are all FAs. And I would argue have the potential to help our offense.

Help is available if we want it and are willing to actually spend real money. Or we can keep going with the Eloy Jimenez’s and Ryan O’Hearn.

[foxfield]

12 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't believe I called any player trash nor did I say to throw the whole organization in the trash. We really don't disagree that much on the state of the organization.

Saying that, the hitting philosophy has to go.

The frustration comes from expectations than anything. This team played so poorly since about late June and yes injuries had something to do with that, but it also was one of the worse teams with hitting with RISP. Yesterday, when they got the bases loaded with no outs, I thought to myself, "They have us just where they want us."

Of course Santander, who is one of the bigger choke artists in these situations, pops out to 1st base, then Cowser strikes out on a pitch that literally hit him. Adley then did Adley things and got out so the team scored nothing.

But that was this team in a microcosm. They could not handle pressure and they're hitting style never changed in situations. They did not have productive at bats by moving runners over or getting runners in from 3rd base with less than two outs because they had the same, swing from the heels, upper cut approach.

There is a time to do damage and a time to have a productive at bat to help the team. This team's hitting philosophy certainly did not make adjustments and it showed.

The entire hitting philosophy on this team needs to be replaced and new voices are needed. They also need a real MOO bat, and have to move on from Santander and Mountcastle at the very least.

Again, I agree that the approach is not working and I hope it is evaluated and changed.  But if you are seeing what happened as choking, I think you are being small.  These same guys hit well in high pressure situations last year.  They produced a runaway ROY in Gunnar Henderson.  They failed last year in the playoffs because of pitching and lost this year in spite of excellent pitching.

A bigger examination is needed.  Santander has a long history of not hitting well in the cooler weather.   It should not be surprising or disappointing that he isn't great in October.  He isn't in March or April or September and really hasn't ever been.

Cowser has had little success in high pressure situations and it seems unlikely that all of that is explainable by pitchers knowing how to pitch him.  

I am more interested in what happened psychologically to this team that seemed like nothing phased it and produced series wins at home and on the road like a factory pouring out product.  If this team, after all of the injuries it sustained failed because of pitching, we could have at least focused on Elilas not getting enough help.

This team failed due to the same reason it has failed since June.  It no longer looks like a good cohesive group.  Hitters seem to be going through the motions, guessing at pitches and flailing away at pitches that good hitters simply don't swing at.  

Something changed and it isn't that they became choke artists.  That just makes us feel better to derisively rip these guys who ripped our hearts out.

[PauleeWalnuts]

The at-bat by Cowser may have been the worst at bat I've ever seen given the moment.

He made his mind up he was swinging before the pitcher even released the ball. Struck out swinging on a pitch that hit him with the bases loaded and broke his hand all on the same play.

[Tony-OH]

55 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Who is the real MOO bat though?  I can't think of one other than Soto available.  I am all in on Soto, but I don't think the Orioles will even sniff him.  Absent Soto, who do you look to acquire?

I agree that it is time to move on from Tony and Mounty, but I do think you are a little harsh on Tony.  He has won a number of games for this team in the clutch.  He is just prone to cold spells.  

I think Santander is a great teammate and seems to care a lot. He just came up very small when his team needed him the most. He's had too many unproductive at bats in key situations because he refuses to stop trying to hit a home run on every swing. He's got a slow man's game and he's not the kind of guy that you invest in my opinion.