Are the Orioles committed to winning?

[BaltimoreGhost]

Unless we go for a Matt Holliday or Lackey, I don't know how many mid level FA guys we could sign to get us up to 60 million.

I don't know what your talking about changing the dates. I thought 2011/2012 was always the plan. Why else would he extend Roberts instead of trading him?

I am still hoping AM open up the pocketbook and signs Matt Holliday.

Matt Holliday has stated he wants to stay in St. Louis, either way I think he showed in Oakland that he's not entirely comfortable in the American League.

I completely agree with the 2011/12 part though. If anyone thought we'd contend in one or two years, well, you were looking at the world through orange-colored glasses.

Once guys like Arrieta and Bell come up and are contributing the way they should, we should be ready, But that won't be next year, and it could be until 2012.

[DrungoHazewood]

There should be another poll entitled "Are the Orioles really committed to winning (i.e. going all in for 'premium' talent at every possible opportunity, expanding the payroll posthaste to a more reasonable level like $120M, and having a laser-like focus on acquiring a cleanup hitting first baseman with a .950 OPS.)"

[Satyr3206]

There should be another poll entitled "Are the Orioles really committed to winning (i.e. going all in for 'premium' talent at every possible opportunity, expanding the payroll posthaste to a more reasonable level like $120M, and having a laser-like focus on acquiring a cleanup hitting first baseman with a .950 OPS.)"

Don't forget to include "premium" in the poll.

[VTmook213]

Matt Holliday has stated he wants to stay in St. Louis, either way I think he showed in Oakland that he's not entirely comfortable in the American League.

I completely agree with the 2011/12 part though. If anyone thought we'd contend in one or two years, well, you were looking at the world through orange-colored glasses.

Once guys like Arrieta and Bell come up and are contributing the way they should, we should be ready, But that won't be next year, and it could be until 2012.

He's also represented by Boras so it's probably unlikely he resigns there unless they offer him the most money. And given that they have Pujols, Carpenter, and Wainwright to worry about extending, I'm not sure that's going to happen unless their ownership OKs expanding their current payroll threshhold.

[Frobby]

It would be a start, but I'm not sure how we are going to win 77 games next year in the AL East with the talent we have assembled without some major additions and some major improvement from our younger guys.

We are on pace to lose almost 100 games this year.

Well, I expect significant improvement from our younger guys. That's how sports work, and it's the whole premise of MacPhail's plan. Some individual players may disappoint, but in general, take any randomly selected 10 rookies and you'd expect that the group as a whole would do quite a bit better in the 2nd year. And, we have some other young guys to add to the mix if some of these ones fail.

We do need to improve 1B and 3B for next year, but it's not hard, as we have a composite OPS of about .700 from those 2 spots. You don't have to trade for AGon and sign Figgins to do it; it can be done more cheaply if that's what MacPhail wants to do while waiting on Snyder and Bell.

The fact that we are on pace to lose almost 100 games doesn't matter much. I hate that, but improvements of 10-15 games happen pretty routinely in the majors.

Really, this whole thread comes down to timing. Should the O's go outside to get 1-2 key pieces now, or does it make more sense to wait a year or 2? For fans who have watched losing baseball for 12 years, it's natural to want to try to go get some key players right now. But the better answer for the long term may be to wait.

[Hank Scorpio]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-orioles0903,0,6169650.story

[foxfield]

I'll reference this quote from Drungo:

From the way MacPhail has said he's approaching things, he's ending the season before it starts next year as well...

This organization does not seem committed to winning, bottom line. They are committed to following a plan, that is to rebuild with youth, but there's nothing that's been done that shows we want to win at the ML level.

Instead we've won fewer and fewer games since MacPhail has taken over.

While going with youth is a great idea, it'd be nice to see MacPhail state a deadline for the rebuilding to be over. He's implied it, but he hasn't come out and said this is when we want to win and this is the date we are focused on winning.

Instead he keeps pushing back the date fans expect, however he's been so vague about when that is, that some fans still continue to support his methods, making excuses for why it is taking so long to get to a winning level.

After this season we are going to have had 12 years of losing, 2.5 of them under Andy MacPhail, and yet there still seems to be no urgency.

The payroll is dropping as well as the wins, and I will point out that if we go into the season with under a 60 million dollar payroll it will drop us down into a bracket where we start getting even more revenue sharing money, as a reward for refusing to spend.

It is looking more and more like this organization is more commited to making a profit, than winning games. And this rebuilding movement with youth seems more and more like a smokescreen and an excuse IMO to lower payroll even though the Orioles are making a ton of money from MASN and MLB.

MacPhail can change that perception, but he's got to be straight up with the fans. Set a deadline publicly, and go for it. Throw us a bone, so we can at least think that there will be an end to this losing sometime soon. He's got the resources to improve this club over the offseason and at least try to win games next year and it would sure be nice if he used them.

J,

You have thousands of posts and are no doubt a true Oriole fan (in the sense that you want the O's to win). Must you stroke your ego so much in bashing where we are? Where is your insight to how we got here? In my humble opinion, we got here following many of the same ideas that you project now.

Not that I have a problem with your opinion, because its your 2 cents so to speak. But seriously, as a fanatic...is right now really when you choose to question if the organization is committed to winning? Really?

So you are saying that after all these years of losing but being committed to winning, we are now on the wrong track because we are pretending to attempt to do things the right way?

For those who choose to support Am and I count myself as one of those, there should be no blinders on. Much has been done to improve the organization but it is a foundation, not the finished product. AM will ultimately be judged by the next 3 years. But to be constantly bombarding what is and has occurred over the last 2.5 years seems....well uninformed would be a kind way of putting it.

Of course, that is only my opinion and you know what they say about that....:laughlol:

[Shopay]

Well, I expect significant improvement from our younger guys. That's how sports work, and it's the whole premise of MacPhail's plan. Some individual players may disappoint, but in general, take any randomly selected 10 rookies and you'd expect that the group as a whole would do quite a bit better in the 2nd year. And, we have some other young guys to add to the mix if some of these ones fail.

We do need to improve 1B and 3B for next year, but it's not hard, as we have a composite OPS of about .700 from those 2 spots. You don't have to trade for AGon and sign Figgins to do it; it can be done more cheaply if that's what MacPhail wants to do while waiting on Snyder and Bell.

The fact that we are on pace to lose almost 100 games doesn't matter much. I hate that, but improvements of 10-15 games happen pretty routinely in the majors.

Really, this whole thread comes down to timing. Should the O's go outside to get 1-2 key pieces now, or does it make more sense to wait a year or 2? For fans who have watched losing baseball for 12 years, it's natural to want to try to go get some key players right now. But the better answer for the long term may be to wait.

I completely agree. I have no doubt that AM will sign some very good FAs in the future, I'm just not sure if it will be this offseason. I think he will explore all options this offseason to get better, which includes looking at FAs, I just sense that AM wants to see more of how our young pieces fit together before he pulls the trigger on a significant expediture. Plus, doesn't the FA market look stronger next year. That doesn't mean AM absolutely won't pull the trigger on a major FA this off season, just not likely, IMO.

One other point to remember is there may be some interesting players that will become available in the offseason due to a salary dump scenario, like Rios did, that we aren't even aware of. That's always a possibility for AM, if it is a very good fit.

[clarence]

A long term patient approach means nothing?

Losing a comma makes these words quite profound. I'm sure there is a shrink someone dreaming of the challenge.

[clarence]

I'm just curious. How much longer is it going to take for most of us to realize that arguing with this guy is a waste of breath? He is wrong regarding this just like he is wrong almost all of the time, but it doesn't matter. He isn't going to change. He isn't going to listen. He doesn't care what we think. He doesn't care how often he is wrong or how bad his reputation gets. He simply wants to get lots of attention. He believes that there is no such thing as bad notoriety. So long as we keep giving him that attention, he will keep posting "look at me" stuff like this thread. I wish that wasn't the case, but I'm basically positive of it at this point.

He is addicted to the attention he gets on this board and the only way he can get that attention is to make these sorts of outlandish threads. Nobody believes the inane stuff he spouts. We're just feeding the troll.

I think maybe a message board father type figure would help him and I think you might be the man for the job. You up for it?

[ejf1025]

Eh...I just don't think he's very smart.

[carolinaoriole]

I'll reference this quote from Drungo:

From the way MacPhail has said he's approaching things, he's ending the season before it starts next year as well...

This organization does not seem committed to winning, bottom line. They are committed to following a plan, that is to rebuild with youth, but there's nothing that's been done that shows we want to win at the ML level.

Instead we've won fewer and fewer games since MacPhail has taken over.

While going with youth is a great idea, it'd be nice to see MacPhail state a deadline for the rebuilding to be over. He's implied it, but he hasn't come out and said this is when we want to win and this is the date we are focused on winning.

Instead he keeps pushing back the date fans expect, however he's been so vague about when that is, that some fans still continue to support his methods, making excuses for why it is taking so long to get to a winning level.

After this season we are going to have had 12 years of losing, 2.5 of them under Andy MacPhail, and yet there still seems to be no urgency.

The payroll is dropping as well as the wins, and I will point out that if we go into the season with under a 60 million dollar payroll it will drop us down into a bracket where we start getting even more revenue sharing money, as a reward for refusing to spend.

It is looking more and more like this organization is more commited to making a profit, than winning games. And this rebuilding movement with youth seems more and more like a smokescreen and an excuse IMO to lower payroll even though the Orioles are making a ton of money from MASN and MLB.

MacPhail can change that perception, but he's got to be straight up with the fans. Set a deadline publicly, and go for it. Throw us a bone, so we can at least think that there will be an end to this losing sometime soon. He's got the resources to improve this club over the offseason and at least try to win games next year and it would sure be nice if he used them.

It is looking more and more that this organization is commited to winning

but they are looking long term and not for immediate gratification

What we need is a little Patience

This team is exactly where one would think it would be in a long rebuilding process

And it has only been about 2 and a half years in the process, we are getting better.

There are only good times ahead.

I believe that we are a big bopper away from being a contender

No bones are needed.

No silly deadlines need to be set.

If A.M. does that he would be allowing the outside pressure to dictate how the team makes decisions.

It would be the begining of the end of his tenure here.

He is the one in charge, it is his responsibility He need not worry what we think

Not that it is not important

But it would cloud his judgement.

It would be like a mayor or President who changes policy every time a new poll came out.

[hoosiers]

I'm just curious. How much longer is it going to take for most of us to realize that arguing with this guy is a waste of breath? He is wrong regarding this just like he is wrong almost all of the time, but it doesn't matter. He isn't going to change. He isn't going to listen. He doesn't care what we think. He doesn't care how often he is wrong or how bad his reputation gets. He simply wants to get lots of attention. He believes that there is no such thing as bad notoriety. So long as we keep giving him that attention, he will keep posting "look at me" stuff like this thread. I wish that wasn't the case, but I'm basically positive of it at this point.

He is addicted to the attention he gets on this board and the only way he can get that attention is to make these sorts of outlandish threads. Nobody believes the inane stuff he spouts. We're just feeding the troll.

I'm with you.

I can deal with negative opinions of our team and FO, but I've been hoping the repeated meritless criticisms of this poster would have been addressed in some manner. JT spends most of the time throwing stuff on the wall just to see what sticks and generates negative sentiment in his wake. Efforts by the community here to guide this poster toward more substantive posts have gone unheeded. Not much of a positive contribution to the board from this poster.

[carolinaoriole]

12 years, $230MM.

Final offer, "A-GON."

Seriously, I think if you actually used the guy's name it wouldn't drive me half as nuts.

I am totally with you on the A-GON thing

[Satyr3206]

I am totally with you on the A-GON thing

How about J Tron, destroyer of all rational reasoning?:laughlol: