Actions Speak Louder than Words

[MrOrange82]

It takes time to do this. To set up meetings (particularly if the other side isn't getting back to you). Convincing the fan base that you tried really hard at something that you were almost certain had no chance of succeeding isn't a characteristic we should wish the BAL FO to possess.

I mean...I guess they could've gone all-out and actually tried to turn the tide and sign him?

Going up against extremely long odds isn't pointless. It's good PR, it sends a positive message to other FA's, it demonstrates that your organization isn't complacent or fatalistic, etc. Driving up the price for competing teams is a reasonable, worthwhile side-benefit.

Never really getting in the game, though? What have you actually saved? If your answer is time...well, I'll start worrying more about Oriole time-savings when they give me some indication that they're using all that saved time wisely. Not to be glib, but it's not as though they were all that productive during the Teixeira offseason, given how many holes remain on this team.

[Stotle]

I mean...I guess they could've gone all-out and actually tried to turn the tide and sign him?

Going up against extremely long odds isn't pointless. It's good PR, it sends a positive message to other FA's, it demonstrates that your organization isn't complacent or fatalistic, etc. Driving up the price for competing teams is a reasonable, worthwhile side-benefit.

Never really getting in the game, though? What have you actually saved? If your answer is time...well, I'll start worrying more about Oriole time-savings when they give me some indication that they're using all that saved time wisely. Not to be glib, but it's not as though they were all that productive during the Teixeira offseason, given how many holes remain on this team.

I honestly don't disagree with your post. It's hard for me to make the time argument with a straight face when BAL ends-up with Gonzalez and Atkins. But, as a general principal, I wouldn't spend tons of time trying to sign someone that has indicated they aren't interested in talking.

If my 15th Round pick in the draft has indicated he is almost certainly going to college, my focus is going to be on people I can sign. If I really like him, I give an offer and try to get the ball rolling, but I am not going to linger to long.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Haha. So predictable. Another way to read that, is that they made an initial offer and said they would go higher. Tex and Boras never made a counter offer. Why? Because they had no intention of going to Baltimore. It's as simple as that.

Well I think JTrea's point is that they never came back to us because we said we had room to go a little higher than our initial offer, but not as high as what he ended up with or higher. From the article,

The offers that were publicized at the time were accurate and I think what I made clear was that we had more room. Not that it was going to be what he ended up getting."

Now this is an unprovable hypothetical but perhaps if we had said we'll go to 190 million T-Bag's camp would've gotten back to us. You can interpret this as T-Bag's camp reading a limit with the O's that they knew they could beat or had already beaten in negotiations with other teams.

There's also room for your hypothesis that T-Bag never had any real intention of coming here and we'll never know for sure which theory is correct.

[MrOrange82]

I honestly don't disagree with your post. It's hard for me to make the time argument with a straight face when BAL ends-up with Gonzalez and Atkins. But, as a general principal, I wouldn't spend tons of time trying to sign someone that has indicated they aren't interested in talking.

If my 15th Round pick in the draft has indicated he is almost certainly going to college, my focus is going to be on people I can sign. If I really like him, I give an offer and try to get the ball rolling, but I am not going to linger to long.

That's reasonable. I just think the equation changes when you're talking about free agency. Attempting to sign a draft pick whose rights you control (and who you presumably spent a later-round pick on knowing that he'd be a long shot for signing purposes) is a bit different than navigating the FA waters with 29 other teams. IMO, all sorts of messages can be sent via free agent efforts. The consequences of trying and failing, for example, can vary. They can be both positive and negative. The way the Orioles handled things with Teixeira (again, IMO) created nothing but negatives, and deprived the Orioles of the potential benefits of a legitimate pursuit.

[Malike]

Possibly forcing the Yankees to spend more on a certain player, thereby *potentially* limiting, at least somewhat, their ability to sign other players, isn't a worthwhile use of time?

Worst case scenario, you make the best offer, it gets shot down, you make it hard for fans to criticize the effort (unless it's one of those classic "we offered 2 million dollars more over the life of the contract" scenarios for which the O's have been known). Best case scenario, you make the Yankees spend more and possibly limit their flexibility to some degree.

I don't see the problem.

They spent a half a billion dollars on three players. Do you honestly think if they had to pay an extra 30 million over the course of the contract for Tex, it would have made them bat an eye? They have no potential limitations. None.

[MrOrange82]

They spent a half a billion dollars on three players. Do you honestly think if they had to pay an extra 30 million over the course of the contract for Tex, it would have made them bat an eye? They have no potential limitations. None.

Really? You really think that?

The Yankees mostly stayed out of the free agent markets for Bay and Holiday last offseason. They didn't do it because they weren't at-all interested. IIRC, reports were saying that they wanted to save money for future expenditures. Just because "Yankees" is emblazoned across their uniforms doesn't mean they can afford to hand out 100 million dollar contracts like candy (and the same goes for 30 million dollar K's).

[davearm]

Doesn't this discussion ignore that the Yankees basically came out of nowhere at the 11th hour and sealed the deal with Tex very quickly and quietly?

For weeks all you heard was Boston, Washington, and Baltimore.

The O's very conceivably didn't really even know they were bidding against the NYY.

[Malike]

Really? You really think that?

The Yankees mostly stayed out of the free agent markets for Bay and Holiday last offseason. They didn't do it because they weren't at-all interested. IIRC, reports were saying that they wanted to save money for future expenditures. Just because "Yankees" is emblazoned across their uniforms doesn't mean they can afford to hand out 100 million dollar contracts like candy (and the same goes for 30 million dollar K's).

Yes, I really think that. They wanted those three players. I'm sure they had some other interest in Bay, Holiday, etc, but these players were the priority, and nothing was stopping them from signing them. Not even an extra 30 million dollars over the course of 8 years for Teix.

[El Gordo]

Really? You really think that?

The Yankees mostly stayed out of the free agent markets for Bay and Holiday last offseason. They didn't do it because they weren't at-all interested. IIRC, reports were saying that they wanted to save money for future expenditures. Just because "Yankees" is emblazoned across their uniforms doesn't mean they can afford to hand out 100 million dollar contracts like candy (and the same goes for 30 million dollar K's).

The MFY's stayed out of the Holliday, Bay FA for the same reason they stayed out of the Santana bidding. They were looking at CC the next year the same way they are looking at Carwford and Lee in 2011.

[El Gordo]

Suppose the Yankees didn't come back with an offer. Would Tex have gone with the Red Sox, or would he have come back to the Birds?

[Rockbird]

Excellent job, Tony! Nothing out the ordinary that we wouldn't have expected or known but a great synopsis of how the team has been mismanaged over the years. Was pretty thrilled that I was quoted in the article too, as it were. I forgot about that Q&A with Flanagan years ago; I guess in retrospect Flanny's answer to my question was "no, we have no authority to increase the budget".

I'll also agree with the people that say that McPhail doesn't come off looking too bad from it. I get the impression he's a competent guy who knows what need to be done, but is still handcuffed by "The New Oriole Way" of doing things. Yes, it would be nice if he was more deliberate or delegated tasks more but when it appears he can barely trust half the entrenched staff around him, I can see why he would want to be guarded.

As for some people asking what motivates Peter Angelos to operate the team the way he does, Tony basically hit on it in the article. He made his millions as a successful trial lawyer which is entirely different skill set than it takes to be successful in management/business. Successful business people need to take risks, be innovative and trust their organization enough to delegate. Lawyers are risk-aversive, control freaks and stubborn to change, so what made him great in one sphere has hampered him in another.

As for people hoping he sells the team, the rumor mill seems to indicate that his son John is being groomed to take over the team and has many of the same traits as his dad. It would be interesting to hear from Tony or someone else on that aspect in particular. We might be in for a long few decades.

[MrOrange82]

The MFY's stayed out of the Holliday, Bay FA for the same reason they stayed out of the Santana bidding. They were looking at CC the next year the same way they are looking at Crawford and Lee in 2011.

Exactly my point...they can't acquire everyone they might like to acquire. They have to pick and choose, as well. Their resources aren't unlimited. If they were, the WS winner each season wouldn't be at-all in doubt.

EDIT: and stretching that to the Teixeira discussion...that's the good thing about trying to push them to spend more than they'd otherwise have to. We might not have landed Tex, but maybe we force them to spend money they'd have liked to spend on Crawford, Lee, etc.

[BrunoCherrytown]

As for people hoping he sells the team, the rumor mill seems to indicate that his son John is being groomed to take over the team and has many of the same traits as his dad. It would be interesting to hear from Tony or someone else on that aspect in particular. We might be in for a long few decades.

If John Angelos is delusional enough to run the O's like his father then it's time to start buying Nationals jerseys.

[DrungoHazewood]

Exactly my point...they can't acquire everyone they might like to acquire. They have to pick and choose, as well. Their resources aren't unlimited. If they were, the WS winner each season wouldn't be at-all in doubt.

EDIT: and stretching that to the Teixeira discussion...that's the good thing about trying to push them to spend more than they'd otherwise have to. We might not have landed Tex, but maybe we force them to spend money they'd have liked to spend on Crawford, Lee, etc.

I don't think their restriction is money. I think it's playing time. It's roster size. If you want Carl Crawford, they aren't going to go out and sign Matt Holliday, because there's no place for one of them to play. The Yanks have to pick and choose who they sign because trading a $150M contract with $130M left on it is nearly impossible.

I guess from one perspective the Yanks do have a financial limit: they aren't yet to the point where they have enough money to get the best players in the world to sign with them to sit on the bench behind other superstars. Almost every excellent player would rather get 650 PAs with the Orioles than 200 with the Yanks.

[Dipper9]

Haha. So predictable. Another way to read that, is that they made an initial offer and said they would go higher. Tex and Boras never made a counter offer. Why? Because they had no intention of going to Baltimore. It's as simple as that.

Perhaps, but you'll never go out with the prom queen if you don't make a concerted effort to ask her out.

MacPhail thought that Tex would come to us? A team that at the time had lost for 11 straight seasons, and had put the lowest offer on the table? MacPhail blew the Tex deal...its as simple as that.

Those who continue to bury their heads in the sand amaze me.