Per Gammons: "Orioles culture... back to reality."

[Can_of_corn]

PA is.

Does he even get excited?

That isn't an emotion I assign to him.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Seems to me you are being awfully selective here. Lough had four seasons where he played all or some of the year in AAA and his OBP's were .346, .367, .317 and .391. Why should we focus on the .317? His career OBP in AAA is .348. I think his .311 in the majors last year is pretty indicative of what we can expect, though I hope he can improve that with experience.

Touche. TBH, I didn't look very closely at his other AAA numbers after seeing that. I still find it telling though that he didn't make his debut until he was 26 and that they traded him for so little after deciding they didn't have room for him. Seems like they weren't very high on him. Hopefully it turns out that DD got the better of them though. Time will tell and we'll certainly have an opportunity to find out.

[SteveO]

Does he even get excited?

That isn't an emotion I assign to him.

I still maintain the real Peter was taken by the Borg circa 2000-2001

[Can_of_corn]

Touche. TBH, I didn't look very closely at his other AAA numbers after seeing that. I still find it telling though that he didn't make his debut until he was 26 and that they traded him for so little after deciding they didn't have room for him. Seems like they weren't very high on him. Hopefully it turns out that DD got the better of them though. Time will tell and we'll certainly have an opportunity to find out.

Not sure why they played Frenchie over this kid.

[mdbdotcom]

Not sure why they played Frenchie over this kid.

Have to play the man with the contract. Can't make your GM look bad.

[AnythingO's]

It remains one of the oldest - and strongest - points for the PASS (Peter Angelos Stockholm Syndrome) crowd. "We don't have the money" is one of the biggest lies ever put forth on the OH. The consistent refrain of Baltimore being a "small market" despite the heavily documented profits of the team from MASN, increased merchandise sales and the profit sharing of MLB.

PA COULD spend (likely not as much as Lerner $$) but he hasn't. Yeah I know he said a RSN would level the field but I stopped getting worked up about PA years ago. The Nats ARE part of the MASN ownership group - they share any MASN profits. The Orioles are NOT part of the MASN ownership group. Nats merch, tickets, parking, etc are higher than the O's as well; the field between the two teams isn't level. While I believe the O's could afford $110 to $120M, I also think DD believes he can field a competitive team for $100M. I will wait until ST to decide if the O's deserve my entertainment $$.

[Frobby]

The Nats ARE part of the MASN ownership group - they share any MASN profits. The Orioles are NOT part of the MASN ownership group.

Where did you get this idea? There are two partners in MASN -- The Baltimore Otioles Limited Partnership and WN Partner. The first entity is the same one that operates the Orioles. At present they own about 84% of MASN, declining by 1% a year.

[BradyBunch]

Unless I missed it - you left out the actual profits from MASN unless the assumption is MASN isn't profitable.

No, I am not assuming that.

MASN profits aren't counted in rev share accounting - so by paying low TV fees to the Os (as well as the Nats) Angelos can cry poverty and small market size plus collect a rev share check which we know he's been doing since we're in the competitive balance lottery round every year for the draft since the new CBA created it.

MASN is owned by the O's limited partnership and the Lerners. O's limited partnership consists of 4 known owners. PA, Clancy estate, Clancy's ex-wife, and the comic book guy. 30% of the O's (maybe more because the buying group of the O's in 1993 consisted of 12) are owned by 3 people other then PA. So you throw Lerner in the mix on MASN and PA has rights to only 50% of MASN profits.

In 2012 the MASN deal with the O's and Nats reset and there is legal battle ongoing about what is fair market value for the Nats tv money and the O's tv money. This problem was well known since 2007. Both sides ignored in until last year. It's still not resolved. So no money is gonna be spent and I don't think any money lined the pocket of the owners for the last 4 years due to this reset.

Since DC and BMore = about Chicago in DMA size do you also consider Chicago a small market? They have two baseball teams. And then with Angelos getting all those nice monthly fees from charitable cable subscribers in states who could care less about the Os or Nats - calling the Os a small market team is a half truth at best.

Problem here.. DC DMA includes Hagerstown. What about Champaign, South Bend and Rockford? There is a huge gap when you start actually accounting correctly. Hell, WGN which carries the Cubs and White Soxs (some games) is a National tv station, basically all of us pay for it. Is MASN national? Nope, it's RSN. Hell, I get YES and Dodgers games part of my sports package, but I don't get MASN. I have to buy Extra Innings which that revenue is split between the teams evenly.

So you can huff and puff all you want but O's are small market team on a RSN. They aren't rolling in money and neither is ownership. It's the teams with National access that are. You know the Cubs, Yankees, and Dodgers.

Until MASN is sold to a national broadcaster like Fox, Time Warner or NBC, not a lot of TV money is going to the O's via MASN. That's the reality.

No MASN = small market team. With MASN = quite large with a cheapskate owner.

Look at privately run tv deal by RSN vs RSN run by Comcast, Time Warner, NBC or Fox. And you tell me seriously the O's are anything but small market.

[BradyBunch]

You realize no one gives a poop about a salary dump unless that money is actually put back into the team, right? Like, no one is excited that we traded Johnson so PA could save $10M for himself.

I am very excited Johnson is gone. Money spent or not. He ended our season in August against a team we should have swept.

[BradyBunch]

It remains one of the oldest - and strongest - points for the PASS (Peter Angelos Stockholm Syndrome) crowd. "We don't have the money" is one of the biggest lies ever put forth on the OH. The consistent refrain of Baltimore being a "small market" despite the heavily documented profits of the team from MASN, increased merchandise sales and the profit sharing of MLB.

Astonishing, really.

MSK

The fact the O's get revenue sharing is because they aren't considered in the top 12 markets in baseball. Hence is considered small to mid market (at best).

Does logic fail you a lot?

[BradyBunch]

As BrunoCherryTown shrewdly pointed out, Chicago can support two teams and still, each team is a large market team. Baltimore and DC are at least close, combined, to the size of Chicago. One has remained a mid to large market team, yet the Orioles now have to cry poor? Where's the sense in that?

Market sizes aren't even close when you actually consider areas around Chicago that aren't counted as a TV market but have tv viewership. As I posted before.. Champaign, Rockford, South Bend just hour or two down road from Chicago, which I considers Chicagoland area. Then 70 games of the Cubs are broadcasted on WGN. Cubs tv deals are about $60m and that's before MLB payout for TV. So Cubs bring in close to $100m in TV money. O's are $50m behind them.

A

and you mention the Lerner money - are you telling me that PA doesn't have "Angelos money?" He's a poor man who cannot spend any of his money from his successful asbestos litigation practice, bu the Lerners can? No offense, but the more posts you make, the worse your arguments look.

Not really. He sunk a lot of his earning from his earlier cases in buying the O's. Or do you think he magically was given the Orioles? His major work since has been doing big cases for the State of Maryland where his fee would have been fixed and not a % of payout. His other civil cases, the law firm actually foots the bill until settlement. So a $1 billion payout might actually bring $100m to the firm after all said and done. That $100m ends up paying for future costs in cases. If it didn't he'd be a 1 trick pony.

So Angelo's wealth is built in ownership of the O's and MASN of that roughly 71% of the O's is his and 50% of MASN is his. His other assets aren't very liquid either. You know, home, law firm.. So when someone says PA is worth $1 billion or more. Doesn't mean he has $500m sitting in his bank account. Rather his assets are worth that.

People also forget PA spent money in the mid and late 90's on the O's competing with the Yankees payroll. O's payroll from the time he bought them in 1993 to 1996 jumped from under $30m to $50m. 1996-1998 jumped by another $20m. Then jumped another $10m in 1999. Problem is.. if the O's had $130m payroll today, they'd be running a deficit. So O's probably ran a deficit in the spend years of yore, cause HTS wasn't bringing in a lot of TV revenue, ticket prices were cheap and so was the food. Angelos put $20m a team he just bought to make them a contender, then poured another $20m by 1998. $40m in 5 years on a club. Hell, 2012- 2013 was the same way. O's payroll increased by $25m between 2012-2013.

So the O's had $100m payroll. Could they be at $110-115m? Absolutely. But not making the playoffs last year hurt their chances of that this year. PA puts money in the team if its winning. O's players screwed the pooch for us last year. Starting with Johnson to Hammel to Wieters. Blame them. Blame them for their supbar playing. Not PA. Lasts year team was a playoff team on paper. All they had to do is pitch and hit what they career statistics were. But Hammel took a dump, Wieters took a dump and Miggy and Chen were lost. Tillman, Machado, Davis and Jones carried that team.

[Frobby]

So the O's had $100m payroll. Could they be at $110-115m? Absolutely. But not making the playoffs last year hurt their chances of that this year. PA puts money in the team if its winning. O's players screwed the pooch for us last year. Starting with Johnson to Hammel to Wieters. Blame them. Blame them for their supbar playing. Not PA. Lasts year team was a playoff team on paper. All they had to do is pitch and hit what they career statistics were. But Hammel took a dump, Wieters took a dump and Miggy and Chen were lost. Tillman, Machado, Davis and Jones carried that team.

The 2012 team outscored its opponents by 7 runs. It's hard for me to say the returning team was a playoff team on paper, or that they significantly underperformed. They actually improved their run differential to +35, but they didn't outperform their Pythagorean record the way they did in 2012, so their record slipped. The guys you named had off years, but other guys had career years so in the end the team came out about where many expected. Go back and look at preseason predictions, either on this site or the world at large, and you won't find many who predicted the Orioles to be a playoff team.

[jjdman]

The 2012 team outscored its opponents by 7 runs. It's hard for me to say the returning team was a playoff team on paper, or that they significantly underperformed. They actually improved their run differential to +35, but they didn't outperform their Pythagorean record the way they did in 2012, so their record slipped. The guys you named had off years, but other guys had career years so in the end the team came out about where many expected. Go back and look at preseason predictions, either on this site or the world at large, and you won't find many who predicted the Orioles to be a playoff team.

Vegas 2013 Orioles season win total over under 78.5

[notyourbuddy]

All they had to do is pitch and hit what they career statistics were. But Hammel took a dump.

Hammel did pitch to his career statistics last year. Nearly a match across the board. The problem is this organization was trying to pawn him off as an Ace when in a normal year he is a #4/#5 at best.

PA puts money in the team if its winning.

The team won in 2012. Why didn't he put any money in?

[Going Underground]

The Oriole team was mostly healthy. The core was healthy all year. That might not happen this year. The Orioles had one of the fewest injuries in 2013. Machado is slow coming back from his injury or Jones or Hardy goes down,this team is in big trouble. Jeter was going to be back in Spring Training and missed most of the year. Machado was foirst going to rest and then decided on surgery. We shall see if he misses any time.