Orioles smarter than Yanks

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Number5 said:

I think that perhaps you are understating the multiple last place finishes just a bit.

1.  By definition, that is not sustained winning.

2.  They received high draft picks as a result.

They have had a winning record in 14 of 17 seasons since the turn of the century,  won three World Series and made 8 playoff appearances.    I'd call that sustained winning, despite the 3 poor seasons I identified.    And if you look at the young stars of that team, Betts and Bradley were both drafted in 2011 while the Red Sox were still winning, and Bogaerts was an international singing.    So their current team isn't the result of recent high draft picks.   Moreover, even in their three bad years, their highest resulting picks were 7th, 7th and 12th.    Compare that to the O's, who had a 3rd (Manny), 3 4ths (Loewen, Bundy, Gausman, 2 5ths (Wieters, Hobgood), 2 7th (Markakis and Chris Smith), an 8th (Wade Townsend, who didn't sign) and a 9th (Rowell).    It's pretty shameful that the Red Sox have  out-drafted us.

[FlipTheBird]

25 minutes ago, Frobby said:

They have had a winning record in 14 of 17 seasons since the turn of the century,  won three World Series and made 8 playoff appearances.    I'd call that sustained winning, despite the 3 poor seasons I identified.    And if you look at the young stars of that team, Betts and Bradley were both drafted in 2011 while the Red Sox were still winning, and Bogaerts was an international singing.    So their current team isn't the result of recent high draft picks.   Moreover, even in their three bad years, their highest resulting picks were 7th, 7th and 12th.    Compare that to the O's, who had a 3rd (Manny), 3 4ths (Loewen, Bundy, Gausman, 2 5ths (Wieters, Hobgood), 2 7th (Markakis and Chris Smith), an 8th (Wade Townsend, who didn't sign) and a 9th (Rowell).    It's pretty shameful that the Red Sox have  out-drafted us.

Out scouted, out drafted, out developed has been the O's mantra for a good while. With Smith, Rowell, Hobgood and Townsend (who, granted, didn't sign, and bombed out in the Rays' minor league system) being the most outstanding failures in that window.

Granted, every team has rough luck in the draft from time to time (Luke Hochevar and Gregory Reynolds went 1-2 in 2006, the year the O's took Rowell at No. 9), but Baltimore certainly has a sustained window of failures.

[Number5]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

They have had a winning record in 14 of 17 seasons since the turn of the century,  won three World Series and made 8 playoff appearances.    I'd call that sustained winning, despite the 3 poor seasons I identified.    And if you look at the young stars of that team, Betts and Bradley were both drafted in 2011 while the Red Sox were still winning, and Bogaerts was an international singing.    So their current team isn't the result of recent high draft picks.   Moreover, even in their three bad years, their highest resulting picks were 7th, 7th and 12th.    Compare that to the O's, who had a 3rd (Manny), 3 4ths (Loewen, Bundy, Gausman, 2 5ths (Wieters, Hobgood), 2 7th (Markakis and Chris Smith), an 8th (Wade Townsend, who didn't sign) and a 9th (Rowell).    It's pretty shameful that the Red Sox have  out-drafted us.

I suppose that for many teams we could find a spot in time to reach back to and support an argument for how good, how bad, or how consistent they have been.   Finishing in last place in three of the last five years is, however, clearly not sustained winning as is relevant to a discussion of today's game and today's prospect rankings.  Players that are on their team that were drafted prior to the last place finishes you discussed are, of course, beside the point.  The Red Sox had those high draft choices recently, hence helping the rating of their system.  The Orioles had theirs long ago, having nothing to do with the ranking of their system.  You are arguing that the Red Sox graduating good players that they drafted years ago somehow supports your argument, while at the same time arguing that the Orioles graduating Manny, Wieters, Bundy, Gausman, and Markakis somehow also supports your argument.  Really?  It is not at all shameful that the Red Sox have out-drafted the Orioles in DD's tenure, as they have quite obviously had higher picks.  Two 7ths and a 12th, plus higher ensuing round picks in each of those years, are much more than what DD has been working with in the last five years.

[Frobby]

You're entirely missing my point.   The Red Sox's farm system has been highly rated and productive for the last 17 years, and they've been winning most of that time.    I'm not discussing whether their farm system should be better than ours at this nanosecond in time.   

[webbrick2010]

15 minutes ago, Number5 said:

I suppose that for many teams we could find a spot in time to reach back to and support an argument for how good, how bad, or how consistent they have been.   Finishing in last place in three of the last five years is, however, clearly not sustained winning as is relevant to a discussion of today's game and today's prospect rankings.  Players that are on their team that were drafted prior to the last place finishes you discussed are, of course, beside the point.  The Red Sox had those high draft choices recently, hence helping the rating of their system.  The Orioles had theirs long ago, having nothing to do with the ranking of their system.  You are arguing that the Red Sox graduating good players that they drafted years ago somehow supports your argument, while at the same time arguing that the Orioles graduating Manny, Wieters, Bundy, Gausman, and Markakis somehow also supports your argument.  Really?  It is not at all shameful that the Red Sox have out-drafted the Orioles in DD's tenure, as they have quite obviously had higher picks.  Two 7ths and a 12th, plus higher ensuing round picks in each of those years, are much more than what DD has been working with in the last five years.

The O's spent a first round pick on a slow, weak armed, no power corner OF'er (boy that sounds bad).

The Red Sox don't make mistakes like that

I hope whomever was involved in scouting/signing of DJ Stewart has been fired

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, webbrick2010 said:

The O's spent a first round pick on a slow, weak armed, no power corner OF'er (boy that sounds bad).

The Red Sox don't make mistakes like that

I hope whomever was involved in scouting/signing of DJ Stewart has been fired

I wouldn't say he was slow.  Not a speedster but slow is an overstatement.

[thezeroes]

2 hours ago, webbrick2010 said:

The O's spent a first round pick on a slow, weak armed, no power corner OF'er (boy that sounds bad).

The Red Sox don't make mistakes like that

I hope whomever was involved in scouting/signing of DJ Stewart has been fired

Beings there is a Vary Large Number of possible draft picks every year and the ball clubs draft 40 players the misses are more than the hits.  All you have to do is complain about one or two picks by one club yet 1200 players are drafted per year. 

How many players from DJ Stewart draft class, taken in the first round, have made it to the Majors?? 4 of 42

How much of an impact in WAR have they produced.  0.000

[Enjoy Terror]

6 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I wouldn't say he was slow.  Not a speedster but slow is an overstatement.

Stewart's 26 SBs last year ranked 4th in our system. He got caught 9 times though. More of an indictment of his instincts moreso than his speed but either way I doubt he's slow.

[weams]

6 hours ago, webbrick2010 said:

The O's spent a first round pick on a slow, weak armed, no power corner OF'er (boy that sounds bad).

The Red Sox don't make mistakes like that

I hope whomever was involved in scouting/signing of DJ Stewart has been fired

They have Sandoval. 

And drafted Michael Chavis. He's a DH. 

And Trey Ball. Who had a 1.61 WHIP in A ball for the second time. 

Everyone makes mistakes. They just have the money to make up for it. 

[weams]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

I'm sure Gary Rajsich being the scouting director is the ultimate goat on that one.   That wouldn't be enough to want me to have him fired.

 

The Red Sox don't make mistakes like that?

2010  Kolbrin Vitek (20th overall pick)

2011 Matt Barnes (19th overall pick)

2012 Deven  Marrero (24th overall)    Brian Johnson (31st overall)  Pat Light (37th overall)

2013 Trey Ball (7th overall pick)   Does not look like a blue chipper so far

Rusney Castillo (7 years 72 million) 

 

Just because you say something doesn't make it dumb.   

Much more in depth. Thanks. 

[Ohfan67]

22 hours ago, Frobby said:

It's an easy decision "if the team falters early," as you say.    Not so easy if we're in the hunt.    I think my biggest fear this season is that we'll be right at .500 at the trade deadline.    

And next year, although I'm hoping the organization will pull the trigger on trades next summer even if the team is hovering at .500. I want to be optimistic and think that DD and Angelos will trade the guys they are unlikely to sign to long term deals, but like most on the board I am worried that they will just keep them until they are free agents. That would be devastating given the state of the minor league system. 

[pastorfan]

22 hours ago, Frobby said:

It's an easy decision "if the team falters early," as you say.    Not so easy if we're in the hunt.    I think my biggest fear this season is that we'll be right at .500 at the trade deadline.    

That is a legitimate fear, because I don't think they are good enough to be running away with the division, nor bad enough to be foo far below 500. But again a GM and manager with 1.5 years remaining on their contract are not likely to rebuild. Though it could be a very quick rebuild if they made the right moves IMO.

[PaulFolk]

16 hours ago, thezeroes said:

Beings there is a Vary Large Number of possible draft picks every year and the ball clubs draft 40 players the misses are more than the hits.  All you have to do is complain about one or two picks by one club yet 1200 players are drafted per year. 

How many players from DJ Stewart draft class, taken in the first round, have made it to the Majors?? 4 of 42

How much of an impact in WAR have they produced.  0.000

This is incredibly misleading. Stewart was drafted in June 2015. Of course not many players from that class have made it the majors yet -- it was less than two years ago. How quickly do you expect prospects to advance?

In addition to the four players who have debuted, there are another 7-8 from that draft class listed in MLB's top 100 prospects list. So it's not necessarily the weak draft you seem to be implying. Granted, the 25th overall pick is generally going to be more of a crap shoot than the top 10 picks, but Stewart hasn't done much yet to prove the O's made a wise selection.

[FlipTheBird]

45 minutes ago, PaulFolk said:

This is incredibly misleading. Stewart was drafted in June 2015. Of course not many players from that class have made it the majors yet -- it was less than two years ago. How quickly do you expect prospects to advance?

In addition to the four players who have debuted, there are another 7-8 from that draft class listed in MLB's top 100 prospects list. So it's not necessarily the weak draft you seem to be implying. Granted, the 25th overall pick is generally going to be more of a crap shoot than the top 10 picks, but Stewart hasn't done much yet to prove the O's made a wise selection.

Agreed. This will be a big year for Stewart. Something seemed to click when he moved up to Frederick in the back half of last season. Maybe he keeps putting it together. We can hope.

[thezeroes]

46 minutes ago, PaulFolk said:

This is incredibly misleading. Stewart was drafted in June 2015. Of course not many players from that class have made it the majors yet -- it was less than two years ago. How quickly do you expect prospects to advance?

In addition to the four players who have debuted, there are another 7-8 from that draft class listed in MLB's top 100 prospects list. So it's not necessarily the weak draft you seem to be implying. Granted, the 25th overall pick is generally going to be more of a crap shoot than the top 10 picks, but Stewart hasn't done much yet to prove the O's made a wise selection.

I was not implying no such thing.  I was answer/asking a question of another poster within this thread about Stewart being a WASTED PICK.  My inference was that so were the other 42 picks within the draft class.

Read the entire thread before you admonish a post that was answering exactly the same question/point that you seem to think I DO NOT GET.