Caleb needs to come home

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, sgillespie31 said:

Oh absolutely, i'm in the same boat.

My point is that if someone really wants to critisize a player for something as absurd as being hazed, then they will find a way to make that critisism no matter what.

Wieters could have,

A) Ask the perpitrators to stop (good luck)

B) fought back to end the hazing (as you would).

C) inform a superior

Or 

D) if he doesn't want to cause fallout from any of the above options, wait calmly for the hazing to end.

Or any combination of the above.

We don't know what he tried or even what happened (making this whole argument about judging Wieters based on this even more absurd), but Corn would find a way to nitpick any of the above options, had Wieters chosen them. He is after all, suggesting that because Buck intervened in hazing directed towards Wieters, Wieters therefore must not have any leadership skills as a ball player. There might be other reasons he does or does not have leadership skills, and better examples for either opinion probably exist.

Thus, its pointless to judge someone just for being hazed. Corn doesn't think Wieters was a good leader. That's fine, he is entitled to that opinion. I'm pointing out that just because Wieters was hazed doesn't make him a poor leader. Find someone on the baseball field, or something he would have more defined control over, and i'll happily critisize his leaderships skills, but saying he isn't a leader because he was hazed? That's a bias that is pretty easy to put holes into. Corn is a pretty smart poster, I think he just isn't a big Wieters fan and that bias took hold a little too strongly here, but I have no real idea.

My reaction to being hazed that badly would (and has been) similar to yours, but unfortunately it tends to be a lose lose kind of scenario, which is probably one of the reasons hazing is dying out.

I'm fine with Wieters.

The issue I have is that he allowed that dynamic to continue for over a year.  To me that doesn't go along with being a leader.

[interloper]

10 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

The man has total control, if Davis is still with the team it's because Elias wants him there.

 

No GM has total control.

[Satyr3206]

47 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm fine with Wieters.

The issue I have is that he allowed that dynamic to continue for over a year.  To me that doesn't go along with being a leader.

He's a big guy. Should have beat the crap out of them. Some idiots only understand force.

[Satyr3206]

Another thing I know. If you stand up for yourself you get more respect. If you let the screw with you it will only get worse. I learned this 50 years ago. Do they not teach it anymore?

[sgillespie31]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm fine with Wieters.

The issue I have is that he allowed that dynamic to continue for over a year.  To me that doesn't go along with being a leader.

This makes more sense to me. I do think its much more complicated than that though, as many locker rooms would villify him and proclaim it the opposite of leadership for complaining etc, but that is horsesh*t and I agree if it continued that long it probably shouldn't have, but I do think its much more complex than that. I just think as a newer player being hazed he was likely caught between a rock and a hard place.

4 minutes ago, Satyr3206 said:

Another thing I know. If you stand up for yourself you get more respect. If you let the screw with you it will only get worse. I learned this 50 years ago. Do they not teach it anymore?

Oh they do, but they also teach men to be quiet and endure, not to complain, to do whatever veteran players want etc. A lot of these values clash with each other. Example: Always stand up for yourself and real men don't complain. Telling someone to stop and f*ck off can be viewed as complaining. And decking a five year veteran in the jaw could get a guy optioned to the minors.

Plus, if you are a young guy coming up in the league you don't want to ruffle the status quo and piss anybody off who could damage your career, especially if you still have options remaining or you are a fringe major leaguer. That's why so many guys are more outspoken once they get a good deal in free agency; they don't have to worry as much anymore. I am in the same boat as you: you gotta stand up for yourselves, but pro sports (and sports in general) have very complex social dynamics at play and a lot of guys are probably more intimidated by those dynamics than they are of each other. A lot of guys are going to make the safe play: be quiet and take all the crap until you get a big pay day. That's why the huge shift in the nhl right now is so interesting and pretty cool to watch unfold: decades of locker room politics are being questioned as guys stand up for themselves.

[MongoBoy]

3 hours ago, sgillespie31 said:

Hazing has more to do with overal culture in sport and the mindset of those engaging in acts of hazing than it does the victim. 

Your argument is like saying, "I can't see a big imposing kid being bullied" yet it happens all the time, or "I can't see someone with martial arts skills getting mugged." That happens too. 

Life just isn't as simple as your argument wants to make it. "Amidst a long standing culture of hazing in sports, a group of older veterans hazed him as a sophomore so he must not have any leadership skills." That is essentially what you're saying. 

 

 

  Hazing might not be that bad, but the fact holds true: under the wrong (or right) circumstances almost anybody could be hazed, and i'm sure many players in pro sports have been. It doesn't make them poor leaders or invalidate them in any other way.

 

 

 

 

[wildcard]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm going to disagree.  I can't see a person with tangible leadership skills still suffering from hazing after more than a year in the league.

I agree that bringing Caleb back wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, signing Davis to a 10/350M extension would be a lot worse for instance.  I don't see how it would help, unless you are going to pay him 500K to play behind AR in the minors.

Caleb would sign a minor league contract.  Why would the O's pay Caleb 500K while in the minors.    He only gets paid a major league salary when he is in the majors.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Caleb would sign a minor league contract.  Why would the O's pay Caleb 500K while in the minors.    He only gets paid a major league salary when he is in the majors.

Coveted minor league players can make decent money.  I'm assuming convincing him to go to A ball would take a little grease.

 

If I were actually suggesting it.

[Frobby]

13 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm fine with Wieters.

The issue I have is that he allowed that dynamic to continue for over a year.  To me that doesn't go along with being a leader.

Yeah, we don’t have a lot of detail about what was going on there.    I do think Wieters became a good leader, regardless of what was going on in 2010 when he was a 24-year old in his second year of MLB.     Do I want him back now?   Not particularly.   

[interloper]

I don't particularly want Caleb back, though I like the guy. I just don't know what he adds other than "veteran presence" in ST, which is fine or whatever. But isn't that what the coaches are for? We hired a "catching guru" in Tim Cossins after all. Hyde was a catcher in the minors. Guys like Sisco and Severino have had a decent amount of ML time - just let 'em sink or swim. 

Then again, if we do sign Caleb, that's totally fine. I sort of just prefer to go with someone who doesn't have history here. Or who excels defensively. 

[wildcard]

48 minutes ago, interloper said:

I don't particularly want Caleb back, though I like the guy. I just don't know what he adds other than "veteran presence" in ST, which is fine or whatever. But isn't that what the coaches are for? We hired a "catching guru" in Tim Cossins after all. Hyde was a catcher in the minors. Guys like Sisco and Severino have had a decent amount of ML time - just let 'em sink or swim. 

Then again, if we do sign Caleb, that's totally fine. I sort of just prefer to go with someone who doesn't have history here. Or who excels defensively. 

I guess I think of Caleb differently than some here.   To me he is a good defensive catcher who does not hit much at the major league level. 

I see him signing a minor league contract an actually going to Norfolk  to catch and teach the O's pitching prospects.   He went to Arizona last year and spend 2/3 of the season at AAA.   Was only called to the majors when there was an injury or in September when the roster expanded.

A veteran catcher is different from a pitch coach.  The coach watch and strategies with the pitcher.   A veteran catch  is with the pitcher for each pitch. Read the hitter,  feeling how the pitcher is throwing.  A good catcher is in sync with the pitcher, helping him with  the sequencing for the pitches.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I guess I think of Caleb differently than some here.   To me he is a good defensive catcher who does not hit much at the major league level. 

I see him signing a minor league contract an actually going to Norfolk  to catch and teach the O's pitching prospects.   He went to Arizona last year and spend 2/3 of the season at AAA.   Was only called to the majors when there was an injury or in September when the roster expanded.

A veteran catcher is different from a pitch coach.  The coach watch and strategies with the pitcher.   A veteran catch  is with the pitcher for each pitch. Read the hitter,  feeling how the pitcher is throwing.  A good catcher is in sync with the pitcher, helping him with  the sequencing for the pitches.

He hasn't been the last few years.

[interloper]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I guess I think of Caleb differently than some here.   To me he is a good defensive catcher who does not hit much at the major league level. 

I see him signing a minor league contract an actually going to Norfolk  to catch and teach the O's pitching prospects.   He went to Arizona last year and spend 2/3 of the season at AAA.   Was only called to the majors when there was an injury or in September when the roster expanded.

A veteran catcher is different from a pitch coach.  The coach watch and strategies with the pitcher.   A veteran catch  is with the pitcher for each pitch. Read the hitter,  feeling how the pitcher is throwing.  A good catcher is in sync with the pitcher, helping him with  the sequencing for the pitches.

Fair points, especially about him spending most of his time at Norfolk. Certainly wouldn't take any issue with that.

[Moose Milligan]

17 hours ago, wildcard said:

Why is it strange if its in Roch's blog today?

Quote

They enter 2020 with basically the same needs, including starting pitching and a veteran middle infielder to play shortstop. They keep trying to decide on a fourth catcher - and yes, Caleb Joseph remains a consideration - and are likely to bring in a veteran reliever on a minor league deal.

If that's what you're referring to...that's very different than your impassioned plea to bring Caleb Joseph home.

In fairness, who our backup catcher is this year isn't really a big deal.  I suppose it would be nice to see if Sisco could step up and deliver but I don't think anyone is getting their hopes up.  The backup catcher on the 2020 Orioles isn't a point of consequence.

And I liked Caleb Joseph, he's one of my favorite bad Orioles of all time.  In fact, he'd probably be my starting catcher on my bad Orioles team.  But I don't feel the need for him to come home to have one more season in the sun at Camden Yards.  Which is why it's strange.

[interloper]

I feel more warm fuzzies for Wieters than I do Caleb. Caleb is a fun character and a nice minors-to-majors blue collar story. But Wieters was the guy in our playoff runs, he had some big hits despite not quite living up to the hype. He's the guy that got plowed over but hung onto the ball in the 17 inning Sox game. He had a freaking gun for an arm pre-injury. He was actually good! 

This isn't me vouching for Wieters to come back or anything, I'm just saying. If I was forced to pick a guy, I'd pick Wieters over Caleb all day every day. It's not really even that close IMO.