MLB Lockout Thread

[OriolesMagic83]

2 hours ago, Moshagge3 said:

Get ready to celebrate, because the Orioles paid more luxury tax money than any other team in baseball from 1997-99.

Seriously, though, the CBT levels affect every team. If the Yankees are restricted to spending $210m on payroll, the Blue Jays can set a budget of, say, $150m and still appear credible to their fans, who are conditioned to not expect them to try to outspend the Yankees even though they are owned by a megacorporation that has revenues in the billions. No fan is going to shed a tear that Bryce Harper's contract pays him "only" $25m/year, less than he thought he was going to get, but that figure sets a baseline that gets used in arbitration. Harper had to settle for a longer contract and less per year because the richest teams were avoiding the CBT threshold. MLB loves it when reporters suggest that the CBT is only relevant to the wealthiest, most elite of players because they want to drive a wedge between union members.

Yeah, its hard to believe the O's were one of the top revenue teams and Angelos was against payroll constraints.  What's your estimate for what the O's have paid in CBT since 2000?

[OriolesMagic83]

The first agreement stated that the top five salary teams in each year would pay a 34% fine on each dollar a team spent beyond halfway between the salaries of the fifth and sixth teams. For example, if the fifth-highest salary team had a payroll of $100 million and the sixth-highest salary team had a payroll of $98 million, the top five teams would pay 34% on each dollar they spent over $99 million.^[4] Below is the amount each team paid from 1997 to 1999, when this system was in place.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_luxury_tax

I think that would be much fairer.  This would eliminate a set amount, but keep any MLB team or two from becoming a spending outlier.  If the top 6 teams all have about the same payroll, the CBT paid would be minimal.  A team who just blows past what other teams are spending and tries to buy a championship, say the Mets, would be punished severely.  I don't see the union or owners going for this, but it seems much fairer.

[Beysbol]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Deadlocked.

Hope you guys are ready for another bull**** 81 game season or whatever.  Or maybe no season at all.

Any of you armchair negotiation geniuses see an easy way out here?  Think one side is all of a sudden going to come to their senses and cave on this one?  

I really hope this doesn't happen. They had 60 in 2020, a full season in 2021, and now we're back to ANOTHER shortened season? With the players and owners going at it, aren't they concerned that the fans will not support either of them this season if it is played? Which, means losing more money in not selling seats and merchandise? I remember the Pittsburgh fans throwing their flags on the field and fans running onto the field and literally throwing money at the players.

[accinfo]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Deadlocked.

Hope you guys are ready for another bull**** 81 game season or whatever.  Or maybe no season at all.

Any of you armchair negotiation geniuses see an easy way out here?  Think one side is all of a sudden going to come to their senses and cave on this one?  

I think you are correct.  I at least don't see the owners making much of a move towards the players.  I think it will come down to how long the players can hold out from caving.  The owners will lose a ton of money but they can afford it more than the players.  I guess it comes down to how much will giving into the players or getting closer to their position will cost the owners over 5 years versus losing much or all of this season.  If they play just 81 games and get to still play the playoffs I am betting that cost is worth it for the owners.  It gets sticky when and if this goes beyond mid-July.  

[Sports Guy]

10 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Deadlocked.

Hope you guys are ready for another bull**** 81 game season or whatever.  Or maybe no season at all.

Any of you armchair negotiation geniuses see an easy way out here?  Think one side is all of a sudden going to come to their senses and cave on this one?  

I think the easiest way is the 14 team playoffs without the dumb ghost win and stuff like that.  The players are trying to make it too difficult and they are wrong on that topic.

I get the idea of not wanting the extra 2 teams but there is a give and take here and this is a pretty minor thing to give while trying to get a lot of other important things that you want.

Now, if they cave to that, it doesn’t mean the owners give them everything if I’m the players, I say you can have a 14 team playoff.  Give us 225M cbt, rising 3M a year for the next 5 years.  Give us 70M arb money rising 5M a year for 5 years.  
 

Keep draft lottery at 5 teams because, who cares and why have this be a sticking point.

Owners May reject that but they shouldn’t.  Everyone gives a little bit.  

[LookinUp]

12 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Deadlocked.

Hope you guys are ready for another bull**** 81 game season or whatever.  Or maybe no season at all.

Any of you armchair negotiation geniuses see an easy way out here?  Think one side is all of a sudden going to come to their senses and cave on this one?  

I think the owners know what they'll go to and just aren't yet because they have the leverage. the players know that too, so they're not caving now.

At some point the leverage starts to get to the players. That might be May/June. I think you'll see more movement leading up to that. The owners won't want the players to get that leverage and the players probably don't want to keep losing money, so they'll maybe make a deal.

[jarman86]

1. Almost spit out my coffee seeing a poster compare first 3 years of MLB as an internship....I thought MiLB was the internship? Holy crap, a 6-9 year internship to maybe get more than a million a year? If you haven't been flushed out of sport by then.

2. While folks were focusing on Tyler Wilson's investments, I thought it interesting no one pointed out that he made almost as much in 1 KBO season than he did in 3 MLB seasons combined. That says a lot that a low level, albeit fun to watch, baseball league can throw that much money at a subpar pitcher that brings in far less revenue or profit than MLB. Granted they have on-jersey advertisers, etc... but c'mon

3.  Only reason we know Braves profits is because it is a publicly traded company and has to file with the SEC. They made more than half a billion dollars last year by annual reports...in profit, from the Braves. Now, several factors are in there, but I assume, since no one is selling their franchises anytime soon, though they are valued at 1.3 to 2 Billion on average, the worst MLB owner is making at least $2-300M a year. But MLB owners won't share that info cause it is detrimental to them in negotiations. 

4. No one in here has said "poor players." Most people in here that are being labeled as such are pointing out facts that revenues and generally profits have gone up and costs, the biggest cost of payroll, has gone down. As MLB is not MLB without the players. And revenues are not being shared to fans, ticket takers, Orioles sales folks, or those working in the gift shop, it is going to owners, some of whom literally could care less whether their team goes 0-162 or never sees a world series, or players, some of who may be playing for that BIG contract and never trying after that. 

I saw something the other day that got me mad, similar to my Severino/Rutchman comp. How the heck, is the best prospect in baseball not on the 40 man roster, when we have 0 catchers if lockout ends today?

[forphase1]

30 minutes ago, jarman86 said:

3.  Only reason we know Braves profits is because it is a publicly traded company and has to file with the SEC. They made more than half a billion dollars last year by annual reports...in profit, from the Braves. Now, several factors are in there, but I assume, since no one is selling their franchises anytime soon, though they are valued at 1.3 to 2 Billion on average, the worst MLB owner is making at least $2-300M a year. But MLB owners won't share that info cause it is detrimental to them in negotiations. 

 

Where are you getting half a billion dollars in profit?  Everything I see says it was $104M.  Still a great profit, but no where near $500M.  https://sports.yahoo.com/champion-braves-report-huge-profits-as-mlb-claims-teams-are-bad-investments-173334889.html  Now REVENUE was $568M, but revenue is NOT profit.  HUGE difference.  Also means owners are NOT making at least $2-300M a year as you claim as the Braves only 'made' $104M.  Still stupid money, but not near the numbers you were claiming.  Of course, some are likely making more than the Braves and some are likely making less.  We don't know any solid numbers other than for the Braves of course.  

Edited March 7, 2022 by forphase1
Additional comment added.

[Camden_yardbird]

11 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Deadlocked.

Hope you guys are ready for another bull**** 81 game season or whatever.  Or maybe no season at all.

Any of you armchair negotiation geniuses see an easy way out here?  Think one side is all of a sudden going to come to their senses and cave on this one?  

There has been a pretty steady trend of the players coming back to the owners on things.  We actually have a lot of issues finalized.

Universal DH. Done

Rules changes with three months notice.  Done

Top 4 draft lottery.  Done.

Money.  Far from it.

I think what ends up happening is the players give on the CBT and get a bigger pre-arb pool or the other way around.

I am a little dismayed that the players gave up the 14 team post season but the owners did not respond in kind with give backs.  That does not bode well.

[LookinUp]

20 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Where are you getting half a billion dollars in profit?  Everything I see says it was $104M.  Still a great profit, but no where near $500M.  https://sports.yahoo.com/champion-braves-report-huge-profits-as-mlb-claims-teams-are-bad-investments-173334889.html  Now REVENUE was $568M, but revenue is NOT profit.  HUGE difference.  Also means owners are NOT making at least $2-300M a year as you claim as the Braves only 'made' $104M.  Still stupid money, but not near the numbers you were claiming.  Of course, some are likely making more than the Braves and some are likely making less.  We don't know any solid numbers other than for the Braves of course.  

I question just how real the $104 million really is. 

This is a team that had 8 postseason home games. Presumably all sellouts or just about. That's after 78 home games during the season.  They were second in the league in average attendance for their games, getting 2.3 million people to attend. They averaged almost 20,000 more people per game than Baltimore, for example.

With TV and radio deals, merch, etc. To ONLY net $104m on all of that seems very low to me.

I don't think it bodes well for the bottom half of the revenue teams, but like I said, I think corporate is able to move numbers around in ways I don't understand. I really doubt they only netted $104m last year, but admit I'm not educated on how those filings work.

[Can_of_corn]

On the topic of the KBO.  Salaries are generally much lower there and I'm sure they thought he would do well for him to get that much.

[Camden_yardbird]

42 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

I question just how real the $104 million really is. 

This is a team that had 8 postseason home games. Presumably all sellouts or just about. That's after 78 home games during the season.  They were second in the league in average attendance for their games, getting 2.3 million people to attend. They averaged almost 20,000 more people per game than Baltimore, for example.

With TV and radio deals, merch, etc. To ONLY net $104m on all of that seems very low to me.

I don't think it bodes well for the bottom half of the revenue teams, but like I said, I think corporate is able to move numbers around in ways I don't understand. I really doubt they only netted $104m last year, but admit I'm not educated on how those filings work.

You don't have to justify that they are skewing the numbers.  For one, they are because accountants get paid a lot of money to do that.

But for two, and this is very important, $104 million dollars in profit for a single year is stupid money. Period. End of sentence.

Keep in mind too this is a franchise that basically sold all their WS ticket to scalpers.  Article

Consider, it costs a family of four on average around $240 to go to a single game.  Article

And that the county is paying for a little under half, $300 million of $670 million, for the new stadium.

Don't let owners make you think they aren't making out just fine.

[LookinUp]

11 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

You don't have to justify that they are skewing the numbers.  For one, they are because accountants get paid a lot of money to do that.

But for two, and this is very important, $104 million dollars in profit for a single year is stupid money. Period. End of sentence.

Keep in mind too this is a franchise that basically sold all their WS ticket to scalpers.  Article

Consider, it costs a family of four on average around $240 to go to a single game.  Article

And that the county is paying for a little under half, $300 million of $670 million, for the new stadium.

Don't let owners make you think they aren't making out just fine.

I don't think that. I also don't think that giving the players more of that money will have any effect other than to raise prices for fans.

[Sports Guy]

 

[Too Tall]

Before I become an "expert" on the finances of a Major League baeball team and vote for either side, I'd love to see someone do an analysis - if possible - on what a sample yearly budget would look like. Regular expenses and regular revenue flow as far as a Major League team is concerned. No specific numbers (because they won't open books) but an idea anyway of the basic line items. Just would like to have a feel for the total business. I assume there are many more budget line items than just salaries for the 40 man roster. Would love to have an idea what they are and their scope. Ancillary staff from GM/Central office to manager/coaches. Minor Leagues. Darfting and bonuses. Capital/maintenance expenses. Insurance. Lawyers. More? And, general revenue sources. Attendance, TV, Gear/Licensing, etc.

I would assume, if you lined up any 30 comparable businesses, you'd find a range of fiscal success.  Would love to at least see a sample of what they are dealing with on an annual basis.

If this is available somewhere, please direct me.