Veteranosity and chemistry: it’s a thing

[Frobby]

Anyone watch the postgame show last night?   Tyler Wells (who, by the way, is a really mature, thoughtful and well-spoken guy) gave an interview in which he gave a ton of credit to the veterans on the team for teaching the younger guys and “holding us accountable.”   Talked about how good teams have a mix of old and young players.   Said for him experience is a huge thing and he gravitates towards Lyles and Wells for that reason.  Said that the veterans won’t let the young guys give up and keep up the dugout energy.   And you could tell Wells wasn’t just spouting platitudes, he meant every word he said.  Here’s the interview, 3 minutes 31 seconds and worth watching, especially the last 2 minutes or so:  https://video.masnsports.com/video/Tyler Wells after O's win sixth straight game /2696

That’s far from the first time we’ve heard comments like this.   Hyde mentioned the other day that Chirinos messed up a sac bunt but instead of coming back to the dugout and moping, he was on the top step of the dugout yelling out support for the next hitter.   We’ve heard tons of comments about the energy Odor brings to the dugout, and that homer he hit the other night after messing up a fielding play was a great example of modeling not getting down on yourself.  You can see that players lean on Lyles and Mancini.  The fact that Wells mentioned gravitating towards Means was interesting - Means doesn’t even need to be there, but he is.   

So all this is to say, sometimes as fans, we have to remember that numbers don’t tell the whole story.   I kind of scratched my head at the Lyles signing, and pretty much hated the Odor signing, but there are things about their leadership abilities I didn’t know.    I did like the Chirinos signing, but I didn’t know about his leadership abilities.   My guess is that Elias and his staff (Hyde included) did know what these guys brought to the table in terms of leadership.

So don’t get me wrong: I would have preferred a better 2B than Odor and a better SP than Lyles last offseason, and it’s possible to find players who are both good on the field and in the dugout.   I’m just saying we shouldn’t be snarky about “veteranosity” and chemistry.  They’re real things, and the players know it.
 

[Can_of_corn]

If it is real it should be quantifiable.

[Daddy-O's]

Human nature is not quantifiable, Odor is the swagger.  

 

[maybenxtyr]

If it can't be measured by WBOA CRISPY BACON, it's not real.

 

This was a topic with a lot of contention years ago too. 

[Babkins]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

If it is real it should be quantifiable.

“Orioles Quantifiable Phenomenon! Feel it happen!”

[ChosenOne21]

Obviously, all other things equal I'd rather have a team with "veteranosity" and "chemistry." That said, I wonder how you would quantify the effects something like that has on a team? Best I can think of is have "experts" assign some kind of score or classification to the clubhouses of the various teams each year and when a player switches teams from a bad or good clubhouse to the opposite see if their performance changes by more than we would normally expect from them being one year older. That said, how would you separate the clubhouse effect from the player receiving different, and possibly better or worse, coaching?

I'm glad Chirinos, Odor, Mancini and Lyles are well-liked and have fostered an atmosphere of fun. I'm not sure how much that actually contributes to winning games. That said, these guys aren't going to be around for long one way or the other. I hope someone else steps up to maintain clubhouse atmosphere when they do, or at the very least the players who remain act like grown-ass men and do their jobs to the best of their ability regardless. I have a hard time believing someone could get to the majors if their performance nosedives every time someone they like leaves their team.

[Sports Guy]

If you got rid of Odor and replaced him with someone who is a better fielder and has a 750-800 OPS, are worse off because we don’t have Odor veternosity?

[jabba72]

They definitely have a never say die attitude I'll give them that much. Odor is a good teammate. Im sure there is some calculable value to it.  The leadership mix happens to be pretty deep on this team. 

[foxfield]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

If it is real it should be quantifiable.

Right now it looks to be quantifiable by about 24 wins. 

[ChosenOne21]

15 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Right now it looks to be quantifiable by about 24 wins. 

I would love to know how you got that number

[waroriole]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

If it is real it should be quantifiable.

Just because we don’t currently have the ability to measure it doesn’t mean it isn’t quantifiable. 

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, Daddy-O's said:

Human nature is not quantifiable, Odor is the swagger.  

 

He should use some of his swagger (confidence) to get his batting average to a respectable level. I don’t hate the guy but I’m tired of the surplus of .200 hitters. Since Chirinos was also mentioned, he also needs to be adequate with the bat. Hard to be a good example when you are one notch above an automatic out. We don’t need his catching leadership now that Adley is here. Find a guy who can contribute more than rarely! Just my 2 cents.

[DrungoHazewood]

I have no doubt it's real.  But it's not transferrable.  You can't acquire it.  It can disappear in a moment.  Chirnios and Odor were teammates on both the 2014 and 2018 Rangers, who each won 67 games and fired the manager in mid-season.

The 2002 Orioles were oozing veteranosity.  Jeff Conine had two World Series rings.  Mike Bordick had played in four postseasons. Scott Erickson had led the league in wins and innings and had a World Series ring and played in six postseason series.  Buddy Groom was a 36-year-old veteran of 10 MLB seasons with a 1.60 ERA.  Mike Hargrove had two pennants and was one of the most successful managers of the 1990s.  And that team won 67 games and finished the year 4-32 in one of the great collapses ever.

Buck Showalter managed a 47-win team and a 100-win team.  HOF manager Bill McKechnie managed the 1935 Braves, who had Babe Ruth and still went 38-115.

So enjoy your veteranosity and chemistry, because while it happens it's not by design.

[Frobby]

27 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

If you got rid of Odor and replaced him with someone who is a better fielder and has a 750-800 OPS, are worse off because we don’t have Odor veternosity?

Well, that is the question.  What is veteranosity worth, and who has it and who doesn’t?

Here’s what we can’t quantify: when Cedric Mullins comes up to bat with the game on the line, does the fact that his teammates are lively and encouraging, rather than moribund and nonchalant, make any difference in his at bat?  The outcome of his at bat will be recorded as though it is solely his success or failure, but does the attitude of his teammates affect the outcome?   

You are never going to measure that scientifically.   You can’t prove it right or wrong.  But from my observation, most players absolutely believe it matters.   And while most players aren’t Mensa members, I’m inclined to think that the guys who actually play the game know what affects them.
 

[Roll Tide]

19 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I have no doubt it's real.  But it's not transferrable.  You can't acquire it.  It can disappear in a moment.  Chirnios and Odor were teammates on both the 2014 and 2018 Rangers, who each won 67 games and fired the manager in mid-season.

The 2002 Orioles were oozing veteranosity.  Jeff Conine had two World Series rings.  Mike Bordick had played in four postseasons. Scott Erickson had led the league in wins and innings and had a World Series ring and played in six postseason series.  Buddy Groom was a 36-year-old veteran of 10 MLB seasons with a 1.60 ERA.  Mike Hargrove had two pennants and was one of the most successful managers of the 1990s.  And that team won 67 games and finished the year 4-32 in one of the great collapses ever.

Buck Showalter managed a 47-win team and a 100-win team.  HOF manager Bill McKechnie managed the 1935 Braves, who had Babe Ruth and still went 38-115.

So enjoy your veteranosity and chemistry, because while it happens it's not by design.

Im not sure about this point! Does Chirinos’ nearly constant failure at the plate ruin his credibility with our young hitters. I think it does and I’m not sure you miss him now that Adley is here. 
 

I respect the Rah-Rah that Odor brings and unlike Chirinos he does bring some occasional power. But, .200 hitters don’t carry as much weight as a guy like Trea or the Angels leaders in Trout and Othani. I think the line of thinking in this thread is off. Baseball is a game of stats. Many of us at some point in our life played some level of competitive ball. We knew who was successful and who was mediocre. I know who I listened to back in the day. I think Chirinos probably has more weight with the pitchers but still don’t think we’d miss him.